Need to vent about "Vengeance of the Dead"

[Arralen]

Spell should be easier to resist. My Sidhe Lord had MR of 18 or so, but the spell got through roughly 1/3 of the times or so.
And if undead don't count, they wouldn't pile up as with my poor commander.

And spirits should be way easier to kill with area effect spells or multi-attack waepons or whatever .. On the other hand, they do the paralysation of doom, so maybe you're right ..

[ February 25, 2004, 09:23: Message edited by: Arralen ]

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Arralen:
if undead don't count

Not "undead don't count". The proposal is for "mindless/souless undead don't count". Ghosts have souls (pg 73). Spirits (such as a Wraith) do as well. Both would count. Replacing VotD attackers with non-corporeal, non-souless, non-mindless ghosts/spirits would indeed be ugly ...

[Pocus]

by the way its a design decision that VoTD soulless killed count as kills, and thus will double the number of VotD soulless you will encounter next time (happened 4 times for my Natajara in a PBEM, in the end she (he...) butchered more then 1000 soulless.

In a test game of mine, I crashed the game too, as the number of soulless kept of doubling. I think the game engine was smoked around 8000 soulless.

[Kristoffer O]

They are not soulless, but 'dead ones'. No big difference, but higher mr and ethereal IIRC.

[ywl]

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
They are not soulless, but 'dead ones'. No big difference, but higher mr and ethereal IIRC.

That's new. Right? So VoD is even stronger in Dom 2?

Pole_sift: forget about "Initiate of the Deep" (Acolytes?). Consorts or land-based priests usually work equally well versus the undeads and they're expendible. Is you opponent using Soul-Gate or Ashen-Empire?

[pole_shift]

Pole_sift: forget about "Initiate of the Deep" (Acolytes?). Consorts or land-based priests usually work equally well versus the undeads and they're expendible. Is you opponent using Soul-Gate or Ashen-Empire?

Yeah "Acolytes" = "Initiates of the Deep"

My opponent is using Soul Gate.

Consorts instead? Not a bad idea but I have to tell you - Initiates with Herald Lances are VERY effective. 2 Solar Rays per combat round and the fatigue hit is not too bad.

But even if I went Consorts and they were as effective that wouldn't solve my problem of getting hit by 2 VotD per turn and having only one survivor so far (7 attempts, 1 MR save, 6 lost nightmare battles).

I play one-on-one with my brother. The winner of the previous game has to choose a race first then the loser chooses.

I chose Atlantis this game. He chose Ermor-Soul Gate to counter. I decided on a heavy Astral Pretender to counter his choice (thinking of Teleporting around and hitting big ethereal armies with Solar Brilliance but I was inexperienced with the spell and it wasn't as effective as I had planned (still an intersting spell though)). When that didn't work out I switched up and starting pumping out Initiates with Herald Lances (also some Fathers of the Sea from a special site which are also good with Water*2, Holy*2 = Quickness+Banishment). Very effective strategy until my opponent countered with the above mentioned (I mean below! ) VotD.

Ok. So maybe the spell isn't overpowered. But it does seem a bit cheap to cast (4*Thaum, 3*Astral/1*Death, 3 Death Gems) for its extreme effectiveness vs. opponents who have killed a lot of "fodder". Its true that I'm annoyed and my perspective may be a bit skewed but does anybody think I have a leg to stand on here? Maybe raise the cost to 5 gems? Slightly weaker nightmare undead? Or maybe the penetration is too high. All my commanders had MR of at least 14. Seems to get through more frequently then it should but it could have been bad luck.

One more thing: Any breaking ideas on a possible counter-strat?

[ February 25, 2004, 15:34: Message edited by: pole_shift ]

[General Tacticus]

[quote]Originally posted by pole_shift:

One more thing: Any breaking ideas on a possible counter-strat?

More of the same If he's killing two of your undead bLasters a turn, make sure you produce 4 !!

Add priests to your mix. Recruiting 10 basic priests is not very expensive, most land province can produce them with a temple, and they also are quite effective. Better yet, if he kills one, you only lose a 50 gold priest, not a herald lance.

As an additional suggestion, you could try to move your worst killers around, to make it more difficult for him to find them, and to hand over their lances to a "safe" leader when not using them.

If you are fealing particularly vengeful, look at the various "dome" spells. Some of them have nasty consequences for whoever tries to cast a spell in a province they protect. With some work and a little luck, you might be able to catch his pretender or his other caster with a nasty feedback.

[ February 25, 2004, 15:44: Message edited by: General Tacticus ]

[SurvivalistMerc]

Pocus, that seems awful.

You are serious that a killed "dead one" during a VotD attack counts as a killed creature for the next VotD? AND the killing of the "dead one" doesn't destroy the "dead one" for next time?

Doubling the dead ones like this seems a bit odd. If there exists, something to exact vengeance, surely there is only one such thing per living being?

When you die, does your VotD count start over? One can only hope.

I've only rarely been subjected to this spell...and never anything I was upset about losing. Because I've used Rainbows in SP. Now that I'm starting to experiment with SCs though.... Ugh.

[ywl]

Originally posted by pole_shift:

quote:

---

Pole_sift: forget about "Initiate of the Deep" (Acolytes?). Consorts or land-based priests usually work equally well versus the undeads and they're expendible. Is you opponent using Soul-Gate or Ashen-Empire?

Yeah "Acolytes" = "Initiates of the Deep"

My opponent is using Soul Gate.

Consorts instead? Not a bad idea but I have to tell you - Initiates with Herald Lances are VERY effective. 2 Solar Rays per combat round and the fatigue hit is not too bad.

But even if I went Consorts and they were as effective that wouldn't solve my problem of getting hit by 2 VotD per turn and having only one survivor so far (7 attempts, 1 MR save, 6 lost nightmare battles).

I play one-on-one with my brother. The winner of the previous game has to choose a race first then the loser chooses.

I chose Atlantis this game. He chose Ermor-Soul Gate to counter. I decided on a heavy Astral Pretender to counter his choice (thinking of Teleporting around and hitting big ethereal armies with Solar Brilliance but I was inexperienced with the spell and it wasn't as effective as I had planned (still an intersting spell though)). When that didn't work out I switched up and starting pumping out Initiates with Herald Lances (also some Fathers of the Sea from a special site which are also good with Water*2, Holy*2 = Quickness+Banishment). Very effective strategy until my opponent countered with the above mentioned (I mean below! ) VotD.

Ok. So maybe the spell isn't overpowered. But it does seem a bit cheap to cast (4*Thaum, 3*Astral/1*Death, 3 Death Gems) for its extreme effectiveness vs. opponents who have killed a lot of "fodder". Its true that I'm annoyed and my perspective may be a bit skewed but does anybody think I have a leg to stand on here? Maybe raise the cost to 5 gems? Slightly weaker nightmare undead? Or maybe the penetration is too high. All my commanders had MR of at least 14. Seems to get through more frequently then it should but it could have been bad luck.

One more thing: Any breaking ideas on a possible counter-strat?

---

Soul-Gate's undeads have high MR. I don't know how well Consorts or priests work.

The suggestion of VoD being overpowered is around since almost day 1. People might disagree but your opinion is in no way biased.

He could have a powerful caster (his pretender) using it, so that your MR is not as effective. Otherwise, it could be a bug.

[ywl]

One idea...

Give the Herald Lance to Mount Kings. They kill half as fast but they're not affected by VoD. Mount Kings need only Death 1 so, even a Revenant should be able to cast it. Cheap mindless commanders, if you have access to any will also work.