On the effective early use of Pretenders in combat

[velk]

All IMHO of course... and I'm biased, since I've recently fallen in love the Void Lord... nice size 6 with 88 hp, protection 14, Encumbrance 2, cause fear(+5), and an extra life drain attack... natural paths of Astral/Water... yummy.

As an added bonus IIRC, the life drain tentacle is damage 10, where the standard life drain is damage 0.

[AhhhFresh]

Originally posted by velk:

quote:

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All IMHO of course... and I'm biased, since I've recently fallen in love the Void Lord... nice size 6 with 88 hp, protection 14, Encumbrance 2, cause fear(+5), and an extra life drain attack... natural paths of Astral/Water... yummy.

As an added bonus IIRC, the life drain tentacle is damage 10, where the standard life drain is damage 0.

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Yeah, but you don't add strength to the Void Lord's tentacle... so it's a straight 10, and thus it's actually weaker than the VQ's 0+13...

If you did add strength... *shudders*

[ March 30, 2004, 00:26: Message edited by: AhhhFresh ]

[PrinzMegaherz]

Isn't it usually past the beginning of the game once you have access to fairy queens and gift of health?

Yes it is. But one affliction alone is not that bad (depending on the affliction of course). However, multiple afflictions are very bad, but it will take your SC Pretender some time to accumulate these. By the time this is the case you should have access to those mentioned spells.

[Huzurdaddi]

[quote]
Yeah, Black Steel Plate would do the trick... but who else besides Ulm has that as option in the early going?
[/qoute]

Well through alchemy many races have quick access (by turn 5), although she will have to do the crafting. But it's not a bad thing to have her be a little of an earth mage too, more protection.

With a suit of armor and against indies inside your own dominion, this is not a problem... but if your expansion can't exceed your own dominion spread, how much advantage are you really getting over other SC pretenders?

I think you should try her out a little. Unless the dominion is quite negative there are very few independents that can take her. I know that I dismissed her due to her hit points. My mistake!

and I'm biased, since I've recently fallen in love the Void Lord...

What do you equip him with to allow him to survive against those nasty independent defences in the water realms (at higher independent strengths)? Black plate I guess is a possibility. But it would be a killer on the encumberance side for him.

Further talking about the VQ having a weakness since she is undead, he is a magical being and that means that there are some weapons (hello moonblades) which will kill him pretty quick.

[mivayan]

Well through alchemy many races have quick access (by turn 5), although she will have to do the crafting. But it's not a bad thing to have her be a little of an earth mage too, more protection.

If you are giving the Vampire queen earth magic there is no need for armor, just research alteration 2/3 and cast stoneskin/ironskin before attacking for 15 or 20 protection. With earth2 you can cast earth might too which is nice to do some more damage and thereby more hp back from the lifedrain.

I think you should try her out a little. Unless the dominion is quite negative there are very few independents that can take her. I know that I dismissed her due to her hit points. My mistake!

The low hitpoints would normally be very risky since she can die quick even with lifedrain and regen, but with immortality and flying she can just try attacking again the next turn.

[Reverend Zombie]

Based on the comments here, the number of Pretenders that are optimally effective in melee in the early going seem fairly limited: dragons, Natarajas, VQ, maybe Phoenix, White Bull and Shedu?

How about using Pretenders as magical artillery? Is this more or less common than using them as SC, and is it more or less effective, or about the same?

[AhhhFresh]

Originally posted by mivayan:

quote:

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Well through alchemy many races have quick access (by turn 5), although she will have to do the crafting. But it's not a bad thing to have her be a little of an earth mage too, more protection.

If you are giving the Vampire queen earth magic there is no need for armor, just research alteration 2/3 and cast stoneskin/ironskin before attacking for 15 or 20 protection. With earth2 you can cast earth might too which is nice to do some more damage and thereby more hp back from the lifedrain.

I think you should try her out a little. Unless the dominion is quite negative there are very few independents that can take her. I know that I dismissed her due to her hit points. My mistake!

The low hitpoints would normally be very risky since she can die quick even with lifedrain and regen, but with immortality and flying she can just try attacking again the next turn.

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This is all true, however a Void Lord can be just as potetent by Turn 5-6 as a your Earth Magic VQ. More so, in fact.

I can have Alt 3, Enc 1 (maybe 2)... and 2 Ice swords...

Thus: (Ouickness)(Body Ethereal)(Personal Luck) (Breath of Winter)

With a protection of 14, Defense 20 (thank you ice swords), HP 88, Etherealness and Luck, Breath of Winter and Fear... encumberance 2, with a life drain attack.

And of course that's only the beginning... regeneration will be there next turn... astral shield soon after... add a Horror Helmet and... well, you get the picture.

My major point is, that having an "invincible" SC by turn 6-7 is not that hard.

VQ's are great, but I don't think they're as uber as they're made out to be.

[fahdiz]

Originally posted by AhhhFresh:
This is all true, however a Void Lord can be just as potetent by Turn 5-6 as a your Earth Magic VQ. More so, in fact.

I can have Alt 3, Enc 1 (maybe 2)... and 2 Ice swords...

Thus: (Ouickness)(Body Ethereal)(Personal Luck) (Breath of Winter)

With a protection of 14, Defense 20 (thank you ice swords), HP 88, Etherealness and Luck, Breath of Winter and Fear... encumberance 2, with a life drain attack.

And of course that's only the beginning... regeneration will be there next turn... astral shield soon after... add a Horror Helmet and... well, you get the picture.

My major point is, that having an "invincible" SC by turn 6-7 is not that hard.

VQ's are great, but I don't think they're as uber as they're made out to be.

But of course, the VQ is available to virtually everybody, whereas the Void Lord is available to only one nation. So that is a massive difference there.

[fahdiz]

Originally posted by Reverend Zombie:
Based on the comments here, the number of Pretenders that are optimally effective in melee in the early going seem fairly limited: dragons, Natarajas, VQ, maybe Phoenix, White Bull and Shedu?

Don't forget about the Earth Mother. Some of the Titan-style pretenders are reasonably effective in the early game as well, depending on forging and research.

How about using Pretenders as magical artillery? Is this more or less common than using them as SC, and is it more or less effective, or about the same?

I am sure there are people who do this - I tend to usually either build for supercombatants or site-searchers/forgers. But a site-searcher could certainly be used as artillery, given the right paths and the right research. The trouble with this is that you won't really get much out of them in the early game, because your research won't be high enough for some of the really effective artillery spells.

[AhhhFresh]

Originally posted by fahdiz:
But of course, the VQ is available to virtually everybody, whereas the Void Lord is available to only one nation. So that is a massive difference there.

I use the Void Lord as an example, because I am most familiar with R'lyeh. Ironically enough, I experimented with it because the VQ is not available to them...

But I imagine somebody who's familiar with a Nataraja SC, could get them fully equiped in a similar amount of time...

The Bulls are nearly unstopable beasts with only Enchantment 2 researched.

To me, effectively battling Indie Str 6+, is not much of a challenge... tons of pretenders with a little research or a few items can tear through indies.

So when I look at a SC, I look at how effective they'll be against other SCs. Which is where the VQ seems really lacking to me... 23 HP, 0 base protection ...

Etherealness is worthless vs. magic weapons... and that shiny suit of black steel plate is worthless vs. armor peircing... and that undead nature means that there are a bunch of weapons that do x3 damage to her...

Off the top of my head, I can think of the Flambeau which is high damage, armor peircing, and x3 damage vs. undead... and available at construction 4.

Of course the VQ is immortal, so she can come back to die again... uhm, great.

Maybe Norfleet can come in and show me where I'm wrong about this, but I just don't see it.

[ March 30, 2004, 18:01: Message edited by: AhhhFresh ]