Is this gamey? - Page 3

geoschmo · #21 July 25th, 2003, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DavidG:
Actually I think it is likely the player with one planet is generating as much as 50% of the resources of my 3rd place empire due to treaties.

Quote:

Originally posted by Slynky:
Without knowing all the details, it's not necessarily a drop in the bucket. IF the "little player" is allied to 2 other empires who each have 200,000 in research and 400,000 in resource generation, the treaty will generate (varies according to empire settings) a chunk of research (to be put to use on SOMETHING) and a LOT more resources that could be gifted back to each empire than the gifted planet could EVER pruduce (assuming it was just a 1, 2, or 3-fac planet and not some huge breathable).

Well, points taken. But still I think the idea of gaminess should reflect the intention behind the planet gift and not the act of the gift itself. If the one planet empire living on the trade and generosity of his allies is going to remain an active participant in the game, and attempt to rebuild his empire, build a military, and be some kind of a factor I don't have an issue with it. If he is just acting as an offshore account creating wealth and or producing ships for the allies then it's what I would consider gamey or even outright cheating depending on the severity.

However it is an interesting point to consider. Perhaps we should seek a change in the next patch to rectify this. I am thinking a good solution would be an artificial cap on trade income. Maybe make it a percentage of your own empires income. I suggest 100% by default. So what you would get is you cannot receive more then 100% of your own empire income in trade with another empire regardless of their size and the current percentage of trade. So you could still in effect double your economy through trade with one empire, or quadrouple it with four allies etc. But you couldn't make an obscene amount of resources off you huge allies and be producing nothing of your own.

This percentage could be put in settings.txt so people could change it for mods if they want, up or down.

Geoschmo

spoon · #22 July 25th, 2003, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by geoschmo:
[I have no trouble whatsoever with players helping each other out in games. But when one is doing so to the absolute exclusion of his own empire and getting nothing in return, as in this case of gifting away all his trade income instead of using it to rebuild his empire, then that isn't gamey. It's cheating.

If team victories are allowed in that game, then you could argue that the empire is indeed getting something in return.

And I think calling it cheating is going a little too far in any case. That said, your suggestion on how to prevent it from happening (trade amount cannot surpass what you generate yourself) seems like a great idea.

geoschmo · #23 July 25th, 2003, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by spoon:
If team victories are allowed in that game, then you could argue that the empire is indeed getting something in return.

And I think calling it cheating is going a little too far in any case.

That may be true. I tend to do that.

But it sure stinks. The idea of a team game I think is one in which all the players try their best and at the same time help each other out and cooperate against the other team. But this type of thing isn't that at all. It's one player who isn't even trying in the game and the only purpose they serve is as an artificial resource generator for the other players on his team. If this isn't a clear violation of the letter, it's at least one of the spirit of it.

Geoschmo

Stone Mill · #24 July 25th, 2003, 08:06 PM

This whole "gifting resources back thing" seems like a really difficult thing to do. Gifted resources come from your storage, IIRC. So that one planet must designate a significant portion of it's precious space to storage.

And so what if they get a research bonus? It will not compare with an empire's research. Their progress will be quite slow.

As for incoming resources, what good are they when you only have one yard?

Besides, if it is an intel game, you can just crucify them with Communications mimic and other attacks.

geoschmo · #25 July 25th, 2003, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Stone Mill:
This whole "gifting resources back thing" seems like a really difficult thing to do. Gifted resources come from your storage, IIRC. So that one planet must designate a significant portion of it's precious space to storage.

Well, you have 50K storage by default. Depending on your situation that could be considered an insignificant amount, or not.

Slynky · #26 July 25th, 2003, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by geoschmo:

quote:
Originally posted by Stone Mill:
This whole "gifting resources back thing" seems like a really difficult thing to do. Gifted resources come from your storage, IIRC. So that one planet must designate a significant portion of it's precious space to storage.

Well, you have 50K storage by default. Depending on your situation that could be considered an insignificant amount, or not.

Hehe, I don't know about the rest of you, but in most of my games, I certainly have wished for another 20 or 30k of minerals (or rads or whatever) per turn...

...to keep my fleet in the positive.

Wardad · #27 July 25th, 2003, 08:43 PM

The incredible amount of trade income available to a single planet empire is the only thing makes this gamey.

I don't think it is gamey to make a gift and expect gifts back. That is simply the easiest way to execute a long term trade agreement. I sell you one planet and you pay me back with interest over 30 turns.

PvK · #28 July 25th, 2003, 09:19 PM

It's pretty telling that no one has yet mentioned the "subjugation" or "protectorate" treaty type features in this discussion.

Seems like those are interesting features which are underdeveloped to the point that no one ever considers using them, but instead use Surrender or the sort of procedure described here. If the features were better developed and enforced in the game mechanics, it could change a common and somewhat questionable situation into a more interesting one.

A trade limit feature is a good idea.

Gifting should have some more game program support for limits, too.

PvK

DavidG · #29 July 26th, 2003, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Stone Mill:
This whole "gifting resources back thing" seems like a really difficult thing to do. Gifted resources come from your storage, IIRC. So that one planet must designate a significant portion of it's precious space to storage.

And so what if they get a research bonus? It will not compare with an empire's research. Their progress will be quite slow.

As for incoming resources, what good are they when you only have one yard?

Besides, if it is an intel game, you can just crucify them with Communications mimic and other attacks.

Difficult?? how so? In this particular game (which BTW I'm 100% sure this type of gifting is NOT going on) 50k on minerals per turn would be quite significant. If he chose to build a couple storage facilities on the planet I think the gifts could approach 150-200k per turn which would almost equal my entire empires output

. (and no Intel is not turned on

)

Slynky · #30 July 26th, 2003, 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DavidG:

quote:
Originally posted by Will:
You don't necessarily know that it was a gift... it *might* have been a trade. Tech in exchange for a planet or something.

Well same thing. I think it is the purpose of the gift that bugs me.

MB is right these things should be in the games rules from the start. The problem is of course you don't figure out what these things are untill they happen once.

Yeah, everytime I hear one of these questions it seems someone says it should have been clearly stated in the game. Sheeesh! If we had to start setting up games with boilerplate conditions all the time, the next excuse would be, "Well,there was just so much 'small print', I didn't feel like reading all of it."

Personally speaking, it's one thing for someone to work within the rules and do something "gamey" (I don't care for it much but, hey, at least the rules and game permit it) but it's an entirely different thing when someone discovers a flaw in the game and uses it.

[ July 25, 2003, 12:23: Message edited by: Slynky ]