Whare are you from?

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by Psitticine:
The "beta-demo" we tried earlier in the development had a turn limit rather than a Shareware-style time limit. Dunno if that'll change for the gold code demo, but it was enough to really get a feel for the game and sample quite a lot of the content, but not enough to replace the full Version.

Do you really feel that many people played the demo, liked the demo, but felt happy staying on the demo rather than paying the small amount you were asking for Dom 1?

And that having a demo be long enough to hook them, but then force them to pay twice as much, before they maybe decide that they dont like it, is a tactic that will gain you more paying customers than you lost?

[Psitticine]

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:

quote:

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Originally posted by Psitticine:
The "beta-demo" we tried earlier in the development had a turn limit rather than a Shareware-style time limit. Dunno if that'll change for the gold code demo, but it was enough to really get a feel for the game and sample quite a lot of the content, but not enough to replace the full Version.

Do you really feel that many people played the demo, liked the demo, but felt happy staying on the demo rather than paying the small amount you were asking for Dom 1?

And that having a demo be long enough to hook them, but then force them to pay twice as much, before they maybe decide that they dont like it, is a tactic that will gain you more paying customers than you lost?

---

My goodness, you're a grumbly young lad, aren't you? That was an oddly angry note.

I should start off by pointing out I'm just a humble Editing Parrot, not an employee of Illwinter or Shrapnel. I don't want to misrepresent myself. I also shouldn't be mistaken for anybody with even the vaguest connection with the economic side of the game's development.

I also have no idea how many people played the demo, bought the game (well, except that I think Kristoffer mentioned it in another thread today), or have any idea how many people stuck with the demo instead of buying the full game.

My post was intended to provide some info on the direction the demo is apparently taking, especially because somebody had expressed a hope that a thirty-day limit was not a part of it. As far as "hooking" people, I think the demo is long enough to show people what the game has to offer and let them make an informed decision for themselves.

When it comes to not replacing the full game, well, should it really be expected to? People deserve something for the money they pay and Illwinter deserves something for the work they've put in on the game. (And just in case anybody is wondering, none of that money is going to me; I'm asking for nothing more than a great finished product for all the editing, beta-testing, and my trying to help out in this forum.)

I didn't say a word about the demo being limited in any way aside from a turn limit. I firmly believe people will be satisfied with the amount of game play the demo offers, and since it will be public sooner or later, those are words I am obviously willing to stand by when everybody has had a chance to judge it for themselves.

[Gandalf Parker]

[quote]Originally posted by Psitticine:
My goodness, you're a grumbly young lad, aren't you? [quote]

Heehee. Thank you for that. Not sure if you noticed the where I seem to be the oldest person here.

As far as "hooking" people, I think the demo is long enough to show people what the game has to offer and let them make an informed decision for themselves.

Understood. And probably quite true. Its certainly standard enough in the biz.

But the demo allowing full play was a point that made it easy to get people to try Dom 1 in the newsGroups. I think the Dom 1 demo was adequatly limited that it got people to buy the full Version if they liked the game. There werent alot of demo MP games running.

When it comes to not replacing the full game, well, should it really be expected to?

Im not sure I follow that.....

People deserve something for the money they pay and Illwinter deserves something for the work they've put in on the game.

I totally agree and have made the same speech often in the newsGroups.

(And just in case anybody is wondering, none of that money is going to me; I'm asking for nothing more than a great finished product for all the editing, beta-testing, and my trying to help out in this forum.)

I think this comment shows the similarity of our positions. It sounds so much like the things I often said over the Last 1.5 years in the newsGroups

I didn't say a word about the demo being limited in any way aside from a turn limit. I firmly believe people will be satisfied with the amount of game play the demo offers, and since it will be public sooner or later, those are words I am obviously willing to stand by when everybody has had a chance to judge it for themselves.

Thats probably true but everything has its pros and cons. I feel that the previous way the demo was done had alot of advantages. Im not sure that going to standard demo methods will be an improvement. OF course the new pricing could be a big factor. It might be a high enough price to make people stick with a full-game demo rather than pay for one that give them higher options.

[Psitticine]

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Psitticine:
My goodness, you're a grumbly young lad, aren't you?

Heehee. Thank you for that. Not sure if you noticed the where I seem to be the oldest person here.

---

I did, and I'm glad you got that I meant that as a tension-breaker. Honestly, I was a bit surprised by your post, and I added that comment after a quick pre-post read-through, just in case I sounded angry instead of just startled. Still, I had my fingers crossed a bit when I posted.

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:

quote:

---

As far as "hooking" people, I think the demo is long enough to show people what the game has to offer and let them make an informed decision for themselves.

Understood. And probably quite true. Its certainly standard enough in the biz.

But the demo allowing full play was a point that made it easy to get people to try Dom 1 in the newsGroups. I think the Dom 1 demo was adequatly limited that it got people to buy the full Version if they liked the game. There werent alot of demo MP games running.

---

I can see your point about full play, and I’m definitely not trying to argue against that in any respect. My perspective is that I think the new method will allow more and freer exploration of the game than a 30-day limit.

The turn-limit isn’t a one-time affair (and I think this is something I haven't expressed very well.) You can turn right around and start game after game, trying out different options to your heart's content, without any restriction save for not being able to play any given game forever. There’s quite enough time for players to get up into the more powerful spells and such, and when it comes to content, there weren’t any differences between the full Version and the beta-demo. It is also generous enough to allow you to at least reach the endgame on a smaller map, and quite possibly even win if you are good.

It really affects play on larger maps more than anything else, and while that’s not to say large map play isn’t important, I think it is also important to note that those are more often used for MP play, and PBEM games are more likely to be truncated by the time-limit than the turn-limit.

One thing that’s coloring my view is that I’ve had 30-day shareware expire on me before I’ve had a chance to really take it through all its paces, so I think I’d feel more limited in terms of exploration and trial ability with the time-limit than the turn-limit, but that’s obviously a personal thing and nothing I can really support with hard facts or statistics; its just the way things feel to me.

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:

quote:

---

When it comes to not replacing the full game, well, should it really be expected to?

Im not sure I follow that.....

---

Well, in a nutshell, I was trying (unsuccessfully) to introduce what I said afterwords: that there should be a difference between a demo and the full game to prevent people who pay for the game from being short-changed.

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:

quote:

---

People deserve something for the money they pay and Illwinter deserves something for the work they've put in on the game.

I totally agree and have made the same speech often in the newsGroups.

(And just in case anybody is wondering, none of that money is going to me; I'm asking for nothing more than a great finished product for all the editing, beta-testing, and my trying to help out in this forum.)

I think this comment shows the similarity of our positions. It sounds so much like the things I often said over the Last 1.5 years in the newsGroups

---

Yes, it definitely sounds like we both want the same thing: the best possible demo and the soundest future for the game.

I'm fairly new to Dominions, having been invited to join the beta-test and do the text editing based on my previous experience with Shrapnel. Still, I really appreciate a literate and intelligent game that really challenges me and am extraordinarily pleased to be a part of this project.

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:

quote:

---

I didn't say a word about the demo being limited in any way aside from a turn limit. I firmly believe people will be satisfied with the amount of game play the demo offers, and since it will be public sooner or later, those are words I am obviously willing to stand by when everybody has had a chance to judge it for themselves.

Thats probably true but everything has its pros and cons. I feel that the previous way the demo was done had alot of advantages. Im not sure that going to standard demo methods will be an improvement. OF course the new pricing could be a big factor. It might be a high enough price to make people stick with a full-game demo rather than pay for one that give them higher options.

---

I guess all I can say is that, as a long-time gamer, I'd be happy with the demo as it is. I can't argue with the pros and cons thing, as it is very true, but I do think this is a good plan.

(Another post-read-through tack-on: something to keep in mind is that I don't have any info on the beta beyond what has been posted here and the trial of the beta-demo earlier. For all I know, it could actually turn out that they've already decided to go back to the time-limit. Maybe somebody from Illwinter or Shrapnel can confirm the plans for us.)

[johan osterman]

There will be a turn limit on the demo. Shrapnel wanted a more limited demo than it was in dom 1, with a mechanism like the turn limit. Whether or not this is a good decision I have no idea, but all things concerned I trust shrapnels business sense over ours anytime.

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by johan osterman:
There will be a turn limit on the demo. Shrapnel wanted a more limited demo than it was in dom 1, with a mechanism like the turn limit. Whether or not this is a good decision I have no idea, but all things concerned I trust shrapnels business sense over ours anytime.

Im not happy with this. You guys know me. You know that Im all for you getting the money you deserve. But if you look back at all the Posts in the newsgroup one of the things that we were always able to make a point of is that the demo allowed you to finish games.

I thought you totally went the right direction before. If it had been full featured and allowing full games but not multiplayer games, then many would have stayed with the demo. If it had been limited play either by days or by turns, many would not have been hooked (it took a while to get past the interface). If it had been shareware, many would never have sent in the money.

By allowing everything, but not allowing the full exploration of ALL of the strategys in the game, I think you had hit on the perfect arrangment. People felt you were nice for allowing full games. But I think most people who could afford to buy the game probably did it. Thats the impression I had in the newsGroups anyway. Maybe its because they were in the newsGroups and we could keep telling them to get past the interface problems.

The reason for "play awhile, now pay for it" demos is the concept of "just enough to hook them". Sure its standard. In fact it makes total sense for a lot of games. Any game where you play it and then you are done, this would be the only way to go. Games with no replayability, or games that people get tired of and delete, you would have to go that route.

Oh well, as Im famous for saying (way too often) everything has its pros and cons. You are with Shrapnel now so your pricing is more standard, your demo will be more standard, hopefully there will be some standard marketing, maybe some boxes in stores? I better back off now. Wont do me any good to stay on your good side and anger the publisher.

[PDF]

Originally posted by johan osterman:
There will be a turn limit on the demo. Shrapnel wanted a more limited demo than it was in dom 1, with a mechanism like the turn limit. Whether or not this is a good decision I have no idea, but all things concerned I trust shrapnels business sense over ours anytime.

It all depends on how many turns the demo will allow !
Less than 20 will be ridiculous, 30 would allow for some discovery of the game, 40 or more would even allow to finish small maps ...
Did you decide about this ?

[Psitticine]

I can't remember the exact limit in the demo-beta, but it was somewhere between 40 and 60 turns. It was definitely enough to get into the endgame on a small map, and winning would certainly be possible.

[Saber Cherry]

A 50-turn, unlimited demo seems fine with me. It would give a better feel for the game than the current limited demo, in my opinion (where a lot of things seem uncounterable, and a lot of nations seem unbalanced, because the counters are off-limits unts or spells).

I think it is a good decision, as long as the turn limit is high enough to see the late game on a very small map. While giving a better feel for the game, it would less possible to use the demo as a total replacement for the retail game, since people would not really want to start serious MP games that they could not finish. In SP, while every map would be playable, only the small or very small ones would be worthwhile to consider starting a game on.

-Cherry

P.S. Although personally, if it were me, I would also make three of the nations off-limits in the demo - probably 2 of the old nations, and one of the new nations.

[ October 08, 2003, 16:50: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

[johan osterman]

Research is still limited to lvl 4 in the demo. But all nations have access to all thier troops.