Tien Chi Default

Peter, there is one area where I will disagree with you. I believe it was:

Pangaea: the Centaur cataphract is inferior. It has low morale, low damage, and is non-sacred.

For Pangaea I think the overall most useful Cavalary is the Centaur Warrior. While if you are doing a broad comparison they probably are not the best for cost effectiveness, but I'd rate them in the top 5.

[ywl]

Originally posted by Chris Byler:
I believe the M5E is also immune to Magic Duel which is a notorious weakness of the Celestial Masters (of both normal and S&A).

I think "small" mages like Master of the Way can be used on the battlefield - just don't expect one Master of the Way to perform like a CM or Arch Theurg. A Master of the Way costs as much as eight normal soldiers and will perform roughly at that level. If he kills three or four normal soldiers in one battle he's doing pretty well.

The one water give Masters of the Way Quickness, effectively doubling their speed for spell casting - very attractive. There are good spells usable at one level of power in most paths. Their problem is the unpredictability of their random, making it very hard to set your research goal for them. Alteration seems to have the most spells usable by level 1 mages, Combustion, Protection, Blindness, Frozen Heart, Luck, Body Ethereal. So, you could in theory aim for high Alteration. Or you could equipped every one them with a Water Ring and aim for "Cold BLast" and "Ice Strke" but that's a lot of research (Water Ring needs Construction 6).

Master of the Deads worth all their gold just for the dispossessed spirits. Spells like "Reanimation", "Revive King" and "Dark Knowledge" make them even more useful. The 3 research points, or 4 with the scale, is another bonus. Moreover, their level can be easily boosted up to 2 by the Skull Staff, which make them even more effective in battle.

So, S&A Tien Chi has some of the best mages in the game .

[tinkthank]

Fair enough.
I play with an Earth pretender (Great Mother), so I am not worried about boots -- she makes a hammer, the first pair of boots to slap on my CM/w random earth, and it goes great from there. Usually never get a Mof5E unless I get really bad luck with no-earth-picks with the CMs.

[tinkthank]

Never thought of their cavalry as that good, maybe I should give it another go. Odd, I just cant get Default theme to groove for me, while S&A has quickly become not only my hands-down favorite, but one in which do surprisingly better than I normally do. Depending on the map. S&A also has some of the best underwater capabilities of any overland race (cast a Mound king and a few dozen Spirits, and you can go under with good success within the first dozen turns -- not to mention the entire Water deal you get with CMs). Once mid-game is over, and I have not been harried too much, S&A magic really takes off -- in any direction you want. It is also the only race in the game I know of that can forge any non-blood item in the game whatsoever with relatively no effort as long as the Pretender has 2+ earth.

Well I suppose I will never see those national summons available for Default as I had hoped, since I am apparently the only one who feels that they should be made more available but also made weaker.

Any other tips for Default theme? Do you folk normally go Imperial Bowmen with those cavalry types, or what?

[Teraswaerto]

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen:

[*]Jotunheim: the wolf rider is decidedly inferior

What about the Moose?

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by Teraswaerto:

quote:

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Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen:
[*]Jotunheim: the wolf rider is decidedly inferior

What about the Moose?

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It is some time since I played default Jotunheim, so I do not remember the moose's stats in details.

I do remember that I found its main utility to be as a high HP archer platform, which means that it does not really count as heavy cavalry, since it does not fulfill the heavy cavalry role of flanking and inflicting high damage.

The moose easily wins in the funniest large recruitable unit Category, though, and it might be a better mounted archer than the T'ien C'hi Imperial Horseman, depending on price.

[mivayan]

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen:

So, if we compare on a nation by nation basis:

• Man: The Knight of Avalon is powerful indeed, but he is hideously expensive in resources and he is not sacred, which gives the edge to the Red Guard of T'ien C'hi if you use blessing effects. If not, the Knight of Avalon wins hands down
• Marignon: Those sacred Knights of the Chalice are truly supermen. At their price (29% more expensive than the Red Guard) they had better be. Unit for unit the Knights of the Chalice are stronger, gold piece for gold piece I am not so sure
• Pangaea: the Centaur cataphract is inferior. It has low morale, low damage, and is non-sacred.
• Vanheim: Red Guard, meet your master. The Van is probably the best cavalry in existence despite its low damage potential, because it is exceptionally hard to kill. High MR and defense coupled with glamour means that the Van can survive many things that others cannot. It may only have 13 protection, but you need to hit the damn thing in the first place. Since the Van is also sacred, it can be made into a truly exceptional unit with a good blessing effect. Add to that the cost of 70 gold and 16 resources and the fact that it can be recruited in all castles, there can be no doubt. The Van is the best cavalry in existence.

In conclusion, I find that preciously few nations have better cavalry than T'ien C'hi, and that most of those that can be considered contenders either have cavalry that is awfully vulnerable to MR dependent spells or suffer from the fact that their cavalry is much more expensive than the Red Guard.

Great list, I'd just like to add that pangeas white centaur is great. 70 gold, 11 resources, sacred, berserk(+3), 22 hp, 16 defence, 14 mr, 13 str. Spear, hoof and javelin. The berserk can be really good, increasing the power of both the spear and hoof attack.

Downside is no lances, only 10 attack, 11 prot, 13 morale which probably makes them less effective on killing rearmost archers than red guards.

I did a test of 10 red guards versus 10 white centaurs with no blesses involved, 9 red guards and 1 centaur died. Then i tried it again, two centaurs died. I think the defence makes a lot of difference in this matchup.

For Pangaea I think the overall most useful Cavalary is the Centaur Warrior. While if you are doing a broad comparison they probably are not the best for cost effectiveness, but I'd rate them in the top 5.

CWs are great too, a non-sacred 40 gold Version of the white centaur.

[ywl]

Originally posted by tinkthank:
Well I suppose I will never see those national summons available for Default as I had hoped, since I am apparently the only one who feels that they should be made more available but also made weaker.

Any other tips for Default theme? Do you folk normally go Imperial Bowmen with those cavalry types, or what?

I tried more Last night. The bless effect could make a big difference. You have some (relatively) cheap sacred cavalry and good sacred summonable units. So, the blessed effect could help a lot. I used a Moloch with 9 Fire, Death -1, Unluck -1, Productivity +3, Order +2, 6 candles and the 40 admin castle. The holy units is powerful but I still have a mixed feeling: a Fire 9 Moloch is not a very affordable pretender for Tien Chi.

The miserable 15 protection for the Red Guards still hurt. For example, without blessed effect, I don't know how well they will survive in an one-on-one with normal knights - not to mention Man's better Version. But well, you can't have everything.

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by ywl:

The miserable 15 protection for the Red Guards still hurt. For example, without blessed effect, I don't know how well they will survive in an one-on-one with normal knights - not to mention Man's better Version. But well, you can't have everything.

Exactly.

If you are expecting a one on one vs knights with no magic involved, then obviously many (though by no means all, morale is still important) other types of heavy cavalry are preferable.

If you are expecting heavy magic, then the Red Guard is probably preferable over the knight, even without blessing effects.

If you are expecting a bit of this and a bit of that and have even a small blessing effect of some sort, say one or two 4s - then the relatively inexpensive Red Guard is your man.

And, as you noted, the synergy with the blessed Celestial Soldiers makes for one powerful melee force.

[rabelais]

Originally posted by johan osterman:

quote:

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Originally posted by rabelais:
Speaking of tien Chi, I'm on turn 18 of a multiplayer game with luck +3 and I have gotten ZERO heros.

Is this a bug, or am I just insanely unlucky?


Rabe the Coward Magnet

You are only slightly unlucky, with luck +3 you average 1 hero every sixteenth turn or so.

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It's turn 23 with no heros. I thought the chance was cumulative, such that you were *guaranteed* a hero every 17 turns with luck three.

(3%base +3% luck bonus)x17= 102%


Can someone spoil me on how hero acquisition actually works?


Thanks,


Rabe the Oh-So-Lacking a Role Model