Suggestions to improve the Water Magic discipline

[HotNifeThruButr]

If water reflects tranquility, flexibility, and etc. It seems that water would be tied to peace. What if there was a global water spell, "Tranquility," that stopped fighting for a number of turns? Every, say, 20 gems you spend on the casting extends the number for a day, but it can be dispelled by determined war mongers.

If you happened to have many more and more effective forts than your enemies, you could pump up your military and they can't stop you without a dispel.

[quantum_mechani]

quote:

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Waterway (ritual)
- Allows mages and her troops to travel from one coastal province to another. Cannot be casted in inland provinces

Here is the spell that shines! I didn't really like the others (almost all are already in the game, in one way or other, or are already covered by other magics), but this is something simple yet elegant that gives land-based nations a spell they will happily pour gems into, alhtough this depends from situation. Pocket ship is better though, but everybody can't have it.

Also, if this can be cast UNDER WATER this gives the two (three?) water nations a way to move their forces quckly around. The effect is lessened by the fact that both current nations are strong in Astral, but this is still a very nice spell, IMHO.

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I would like to third this excellent suggestion.

[Scott Hebert]

Something that has been hinted at earlier but doesn't _really_ exist in Dominions as of yet is reflecting things. Specifically, spells. There's blood vengeance, but that's any/all damage. You could give Water both Combat and non-Combat spells to reflect magic.

It shouldn't be simple absorption, as there is any number of spells to nullify magic (most of them Astral). And it wouldn't necessarily have to be perfect reflection; especially in Battle, just ensuring that your mage isn't the target of [insert nasty spell here] would be useful.

In a programming sense, I guess you could have it check to see if the spell is up, and then, if [check] is failed (what it needs to check, if any, is a balance factor), re-choose the target (but the target area may change).

Basically, if you refer to Fire as Aggression, than Water should be its opposite. Redirection and using its opponent's strengths should be a hallmark of Water.

What about a high-path spell that replaced the Mage's Paths with that of an enemy mage?

Just a few thoughts.

Bayushi Tasogare

[HotNifeThruButr]

If I'm supposed to get water magic to change it to a more useful path... well, doesn't it feel kinda silly?

BTW, Waterway is "fourthed"

[Taqwus]

The ability to cause a local drought (perhaps equivalent to a shift to death scale, additional supply penalty?) or cause more favorable rains (growth bonus, additional supply bonus) might seem appropriate. Water + Death also suggests some nasty globals involving well poisoning; there's no reason why poison has to remain purely within the scope of Nature.
A global that would increase income/supply in coastal provinces (lots of fish, say) would be thematic, and would serve as a nice opposite to the one that floods coastals.
A battlefield spell that countered the effects of extreme heat might also be thematic, although not especially fair unless fire got the obvious opposite.

[Saxon]

Yumm, that reflection idea is very nice. A low level spell that just pushes a spell off a bit, probably hitting someone close by would help protect the mage, but not completely nullify the spell. A medium level spell would actually bounce it straight back at the offending caster, with the precision determined by the water mages level.

I also really liked the peaceful aspect suggested. Spells that limit fighting or the recruiting of fighting units would add a new aspect to the game. It would also make the arcane domes more attractive over key recruiting centers.

Finally, I thought I would add my two cents worth. Water magic really does not hold a lot of attraction for me. It has a couple of good things, available at low levels, but distinctly seems the least desirable of the paths. A couple more spells or items (not too many) would make this a more interesting choice and avoid the risk of over balancing.

[Chris Byler]

Cutting and pasting some of my ideas from the old clams thread (now sunk into obscurity):

I'd like to see a mini Falling Frost available at a lower research level. It's a long time from Cold Bolt to Falling Frost, and other paths have already gotten several more combat options by the time FF becomes available. (Some people have since suggested that it be an area-effect Ice Strike instead, which on consideration, I like better - one of the problems with water magic is its ineffectiveness against undead, because they are immune to cold *and* Jotuns', er, Sailors' Death.)

How about a Waterspout that stays on the battlefield for a few rounds (like the Cloud spells), crushes targets and throws them around (similar to trample)? Or a Water Jet that just deals some physical damage but doesn't require another path like Geyser? Those might not work that well against supercombatants, but they'd at least help against undead or Jotun armies.

Rituals: Winter Wolves not measuring up? How about doubling the gem cost and number of wolves summoned (thus requiring fewer mages for the same wolf output)? Or how about a new water summon? Giant turtles perhaps (amphibious, size 6, very high protection, high strength bite attack)? Yetis (high hp, strength, size 3, moderate protection, cold resistant, claws+bite, you get a nice sized pack with each summon)? I think the change in seasonals was intended to move the game away from massing ethereal summons. But there's no reason that corporeal summons can't be strong and cheap enough to make a nice supplement to a conventional army.

Conceptually, sea trolls are fine, but their stats seem to not measure up.

Some have already suggested a ritual that makes all troops in a given province amphibious (either for a limited time, or permanently). Or how about a one-province Version of Thetis Blessing (spending extra gems to set the duration like Astral Window)? These could help water nations bring their aquatic troops onto land, or help a land nation invade the ocean.

Where are the items that let a commander take aquatic troops onto land? Amulet of the Fish will let Auluudh or a Nerid come out to play, but not bring Sea Serpents, War Lobsters or Crab Hybrids with them.

Passive ability: Every path of magic gives its mages some ability. Nature gives supply, fire gives leadership and attack, earth gives protection, death gives fear and undead leadership, etc. Water gives water breathing to the mage and ONE unit per level of water magic. This is, frankly, pathetic, especially on a path that is already among the weakest in most other areas. Instead, why not let a water mage bring ALL his troops underwater? Most mages have low leadership anyway, but the few who have good leadership (or +leadership items) can lead whole armies underwater. Or at least raise it to 5-10 troops (or 10 total size of troops) per level of water magic. One unit per level is horrible, even if the unit is a Crusher or similar expensive summon (of a non-water path, I don't see any water unit that would be worth bringing).


I'm not sure that all these suggestions (and those of others on this thread) should be implemented at once - it might be too much. But I think there's a clear consensus that water magic is less useful than other paths, especially against cold immune opponents (cold is the most common immunity I think, even more common than poison - and nature has *plenty* of other uses). Adding more spells and items seems to be something that Illwinter enjoys doing, and if it both adds variety to the game and improves game balance, so much the better.

[Chris Byler]

Oh, and I also like Reflect (works like Air Shield but deflects spells?) and Waterway (which, IMO, should work to/from any coastal or sea province - possibly with a restriction to prevent it becoming the new Dom I Gateway, such as destination must be friendly dominion or under friendly control).

A large area Sailors' Death might be effective too. That'll make your opponents wish they had invested in Antimagic.

A Mass Desiccation might be good too - doesn't affect inanimates but does affect cold immunes.

Also, both Desiccation and Sailors' Death seem to have excessive path requirements for their effect (Desiccation only gradually increases fatigue, Sailors' Death has moderate precision and both are negated by MR and don't affect inanimates). Why not 1 for Desiccation, 2 for Sailors' Death?

Finally, a question for Illwinter - was water magic *intended* to be nearly useless against undead, to represent its opposition to fire magic which is very strong vs. undead? Or is that just a side effect of so many water spells being cold based or not affecting inanimate targets?

[Endoperez]

Water is the path of Balance, it is the element that evens things. Water should have more spells that are the oopposites of each other. Flood and heavy storms on the other hand, then draught, then the gentle rains of spring that let the world grow again...

The rain spells tilting the scale to Growth or Death seems like a good idea to me. Maybe even a spell causing fresh, growth-abiding rains in spring and summer, crop-destroying storms on autumn and cold blizzards in winter?

Also, Water form is a nice idea. Water Elementals really need something like that! It could even increase gradually, with even 50% reduction on damage being possible. That should only be for some special summons, like Water Elementals, that would have low/no protection... 20% seems good for protectiona spell. As it works best versus high damage, it would be most useful on a strong creature fighting versus strong creature(s). Sc vs Jotuns? Or even SC vs SC!

Also, I really like how Water Elementals are Ice Elementals instead in cold provinces. Does anyone have ideas for morphing monsters?

[Wendigo]

Originally posted by Chris Byler:

Rituals: Winter Wolves not measuring up? How about doubling the gem cost and number of wolves summoned (thus requiring fewer mages for the same wolf output)?

I dislike how Winter Wolves were doubly nerfed in the change from Dom I to Dom II, they have had their cost doubled (this is OK, same as the other Seasonals), but they _additionally_ lost their 'weather influenced' stats, so they have much poorer at, def & str in cold provinces.

[ April 19, 2004, 18:35: Message edited by: Wendigo ]