SE5 - Strategies

[Master Belisarius]

Think one of the SE4's strongest sides, was the great customization possibilities.
For SE5 I expect even better options to customize the game... and specially, more tools to improve the AI behavior.
For this reason, really liked the suggestions posted here, about to include some kind of script language to manage the tactical combat.

[Pooka]

"Now for a more specific request: I'm interested in getting your feedback on the strategies in SE4. I'm reworking them for SE5, but I wanted to get the fans input on how well the strategies worked in SE4. Did you use them? What part was most useful? Which part did not work so well?"

Well, it's been said, but to add my voice, I only played simultaneous movement. My desire, in buying the game, was to play on PBW so even when I played single player, I made sure I was using the same conditions, etc. Strategies are, thus, both my greatest tool, and greatest curse.

The ability to modify the AI behavior was a godsend, unfathomably useful in concept. Unfortunately, the degree to which you can make your fleet behave appropriately to a combat situation was very lacking. The AI handles non-specialized ships very poorly, and has a lot of bizarre quirks to it that just don't make sense.

These have led to most people (in my experience) having all ships break formation, taking a lot of potential out of the fleet-level strategies.

I agree that being able to influence where certain ships (pickets, screens, fighter Groups, missile boats, fleet tenders, etc.) appear in the formation, and a degree to which they could deviate from formation would be extremely valuable in giving the fleet-level strategies more usefulness.

If, for example, I could tell my pickets they could range up to 10 sectors away from their 'proper position' in formation, but my fleet tender needed to keep really close to my point-defense ships so they'd not get killed, that would enable me to use strategy in constructing fleets instead of simply trying to come up with complimentary designs that mob-rush the enemy as soon as battle is joined while all my fragile ships run for the corner of the map.

Some kind of defensive strategy that consists of huddling together with protective ships instead of scattering out to be picked off piecemeal by swift-moving fighters would be very nice as well.

Also, I agree with others that a greater degree of control, perhaps adding some semblance of 'situational awareness' would be very nice.

At the very least, if AI behavior could be clearly documented, we could better adapt to it's short commings.

You've written a fabulous game so far, and I look forward to seeing how you improve upon it.

[Chronon]

I agree with everyone posting here that the strategies will be extremely important in multiplayer, and that they need to be very flexible and user friendly (scriptable would be the best). For more flavor, I would actually like to see this take place in a special screen that pops up an Admiral's picture (or military title of your choice, depending on the empire file) and you almost have a dialogue with him/her/it. Admiral, your orders are to defend Planet X at all costs! Or, Admiral, take Gamma Fleet to Planet Y, destroy the enemy vessels there, and send in your troop transports to capture the planet. There could be some level of strategy at the ship level, too, which could remain in the design window. Or, there could be a separate window just for ship strategies just off the fleet deployment window (or whatever it's to be called).

I do hope there is a retreat option! That is one of my biggest frustrations with the tactical combat. I really wish my battlecruisers could outrun that battlemoon to the warp point and escape.

[Q]

I agree that strategies and connected with this formations are very important and should be improved for SE V:
1.) Starting position (at least for the defender). It should be possible to choose the initial placement of your fleet as e.g. around a planet or a warp point. This includes the orientation against the enemy. Not infrequentely in SE IV the leader is not nearest to the enemy.
2.) Individual ship placement in a fleet formation. Then your transports, minesweepers, repair ships can be placed in the more protected center of your fleet formation. This may include individual "break formation" orders for specific ships.
3.) No ship number limits for formations. Combats with more than 100 ships are quite frequent in my games.
4.) Different Strategies according to enemy strength: Against a lonely enemy ship I might want to use a completely different strategy than against a superior fleet.

[Baron Munchausen]

Well, yes, they do need to be much improved. SE IV 'strategies' are actually NOT strategies. They are just single decision flags that only give us control over a part of the single hard-coded strategy that all ships have. When a ship has been given 'maximum weapon range' as a strategy for example, it will decide what to do based on whatever weapon is current available (ready to fire) rather than its maximum weapon range so it will not stay out at maximum missile range if you give it any beam weapons. We need true strategies that the ships will really follow consistently not just access to a few flags to influence some of the decisions in the single hard-coded strategy.

Also, we need different types of strategies. All of the 'strategies' available in SE IV are based on targetting (in other words, there is only ONE strategy). Some ships should NOT be targetting and attacking other ships, even in combat, NOR running away (trying to avoid being targetted). Escorts, for example, should stick with the ship they have been assigned to escort. Moving to attack is contrary to their intended strategy, and also running away is contrary to their intended strategy. This cannot be done at all on SE IV. If we have a properly implemented 'range of vision' in tactical combat (and a large enough combat map to make it matter) there will also be need for a 'scout' strategy. A 'scout' will want to get close enough to see the enemy and broadcast data back to the main fleet, but NOT get close enough to fire or be fired on.

The idea for a script engine for the Strategies is cool, but - apart from sounding like a lot of work for MM, I can't help thinking that non-programmers are going to feel very disadvantaged when dealing with combat.

I think that the current interface - pick-lists and check-boxes - is as complicated as it should get in a game. Additions/improvements I'd like to see might include:

1) SubGroups within fleets - as suggested above.

2) Ability to defend or attack objectives (bases, planets, warp-points). Additional movement options might include move towards/away from/maintian x range from planet/base/warp-point.

3) More sophisticated ways of controlling the range. As far as I can see in SEIV, ships will either fire then move, or move then fire, and will always move their maximum allowance. This means that a ship that's theoretically trying to maintain maximum range will generally overshoot the range boundary. This tends to scatter fleets very quickly, and allow ships with both speed and range advantages to still get themselves killed. It would be good if ships could slow down or fire in the middle of a move in order to manage the range better, and movement options like maintain range x might be interesting. (But if the combat engine is very different this may all be irrelevant anyway).

4) The possibility of retreating or breaking contact. (How about, if a ship/fleet with "break contact" orders manages to increase the range from the nearest enemy every round for ten combat rounds, then it successfully breaks contact and moves to a neighbouring sector)

5) Movement options based on friendly ships (or at least friendly leader ships). e.g. move away from/towards/maintain range x from leader.

Can't think of anything else for now.

Mark

[spoon]

If you keep the strategy section more generic (which I think you should -- scripting isn't something everyone can do), maybe have these categories:

Point Blank (Same as in SE4)
Short Range (Same as in SE4)
Optimal Range (Same as in SE4)
Maximum Range - Longest Range Weapon (eg, a ship with a missile and a Meson BLaster would always stay at maximum missile distance)
Maximum Range - Shortest Range Weapon (eg, a ship with a missile and a Meson BLaster would always stay at maximum Meson BLaster range).
User Defined Range (Assign a specific distance. Not sure how distance is going to be defined in SE5, but this number could be in Squares, Meters, or whatever).
Stand Still (Like mentioned above, the ship does not move. Great for a Satellite Laying strategy!)

Default probably to Optimal Firing Range, as in SE4.

edit: Note that this list doesn't include stuff like boarding, ramming, and running away, which should all be in there too...

[Phoenix-D]

I think the most essential feature is pretty basic. Ships with don't get hurt orders should not run to the corners that are PAST the enemy fleet. Right now they often run straight at the enemy while seeking that far corner..not very helpful.

[rdouglass]

Obviously the key is the combat engine, but I don't see how those withou scripting skills would not want the capabilities to be in the game. I mean, I don't mod AI's or do shipsets, but I sure appreciate those that do and I use them extensively.

If the combat engine had 'branch points' for each of the scenarios/strategies suggested, there could be a generic set of scripts for each of those scenarios just like there is generic AI's and shipsets. Also, those with the talent and / or ambition could script their own 'strategy module'. My interpretation (and hence my script) for Don't Get Hurt could vary slightly (or significantly for that matter) from yours.

Having a scripted combat engine should not preclude those without scripting knowledge to benefit from the system. But those of us that do, can and want to. Maybe your individual playstyle would benefit from just 'plugging in' one or two custom scripts on one of these great fan sites.

Game options should include a "Use Custom Scripts" option.

That's what I meant in my first post. Personally, I'd love to see it.

[Thermodyne]

I think the most essential feature is pretty basic. Ships with don't get hurt orders should not run to the corners that are PAST the enemy fleet. Right now they often run straight at the enemy while seeking that far corner..not very helpful.

Perhaps ships set to "Don't get hurt" should be able to refuse combat and run off the map if they are fast enough to do so before getting damaged.