The one change Dom2 really needs.....

[Zen]

Graeme Dice said:
Well, the curve for fetishes was already a lot slower than that for clams. Blood stones were already a rarity for most nations, and anyone using them likely has a hammer, so the increase in cost there doesn't matter too much.

Yes, and then you have to add in the factor that blood slaves are (generally) counted as double for purposes of gems.

I just ran the numbers on fetishes through some calcs, and with F1N1, no hammer, and income of 5 fire gems per turn, at turn 100 you can have 139 built. You'll need to also factor in the cost of whatever is holding them. With a hammer it's 255 fetishes. At F2N2, the same numbers would be 33 and 69 respectively. That's with a huge number of fire gems alchemized into nature gems though, which might not necessarily be the case.

Well if you want to know how I'm doing it, I went from "OMG, totally and absolutely useless" and then keep adjusting it down until I can find a sweet spot that makes them useful in a small amount (though costly) but not feasible to horde. Even though my personal opinion is that hording is a misuse of gems, I don't like the feeling of micromanagment in order to compete (like with Sabbath Slave). So I am trying in the mod to find the happy medium not only in those particular magic items but with all of them. Anything I can say I have never built before because I have something better I am looking at (but not neccesarily changing).

I guess I could ask the community if they have any that they feel this way about. Though I'm kind of reluctant to hear the flood of complaints

I will start with one though, Hunter's Knife

[Pickles]

Zen said:

"Clam of Pearls - 4W, 10 Water, 10 Astral"

I appreciate the reasoning but having one item that does not follow the item cost formula seems like a bad idea.

"Winged Shoes - 2A, 10 Air"

This makes Caelum, Air queens & Archdevils stronger & I am not sure they need it. OTOH flying is the real problem with SCs I think as the operational manoevreability is what seperates them from troops.

Pickles

[Arryn]

Pickles said:
having one item that does not follow the item cost formula seems like a bad idea.

FWIW, I agree with you.

Pickles said:
"Winged Shoes - 2A, 10 Air"

This makes Caelum, Air queens & Archdevils stronger & I am not sure they need it. OTOH flying is the real problem with SCs I think as the operational manoevreability is what seperates them from troops.

I agree that flying is what makes the SCs so dangerous, but the shoes are presently only 1A and 5 air. Zen doubled it. But it's not enough. I'd make them at least 3A and 20 air gems.

IMO, what makes Caelum so strong isn't that their units fly (so what, they all rout at the drop of a hat, unless you build just archers and keep them away from the enemy), but that they have a large air income to spend on equipping non-air SCs or summoning those air queens that you mention. And that income is something that cannot easily be "balanced" without destroying Caelum as a playable nation.

[PrinzMegaherz]

Life draining weapons should only drain strength not included damage from their opponents. That way, strong commanders/creatures would not heal such insane amounts of hp each strike.

[Pickles]

Zen said:
"Yes, and then you have to add in the factor that blood slaves are (generally) counted as double for purposes of gems."


You mean "count as half"? Anyway I think it should be more like 25% - 35% they are very easy to come by.

" Even though my personal opinion is that hording is a misuse of gems, I don't like the feeling of micromanagment in order to compete (like with Sabbath Slave). "

Hear hear.


"So I am trying in the mod to find the happy medium not only in those particular magic items but with all of them. Anything I can say I have never built before because I have something better I am looking at (but not neccesarily changing)."

There is a very long list of these. I think here, as with national troops, there are too many choices most of which are poor.


"I will start with one though, Hunter's Knife "

Yeah this suffers from being one of 3 nature items. I like the L0 items and would any of them for early commanders depending on what I have access to. The knife seems worse than the spear though - there is a similar problem with 4 different earth items. As I favour swords over spears, perhaps incorrectly, there are real options (the axe just looks less good, but maybe duel wielding?).

Two handed items at all levels seem too weak for the cost (with the obvious couple of exceptions, plus Flambeau now we know strength is tripled too). I think they need an accross the board boost to everything.

L2 items introduce Bows. These are no use on SCs as they are not destructive enough. I mean to try them on everyday commanders who mainly try to avoid getting killed. I am not sure they would repay their gem cost but still it keeps everyone involved & feeling they are part of the team.

I have just reviewed what weapons I make from the higher levels & there are not many - except those that have an auxilliary use in which case they are rarely used as weapons.

I only use Flambeau, Herald lance, Wraith sword, Hellsword, Blood thorn, Faithful, Main Gauche of Parrying Fire brand, Frostbrand.

These Last two are cheap & have big numbers & I seem to face undead a lot. Faithful is not one I have used recently. I use uniques when I get the chance but maybe half of those are not any good (or no better then Fire Bands).

Eek am I missing something or are the other weapons just generally inferior?

Anyway I applaud this mod idea as there is definitely scope for more better weapons (oh & other items too) - not nerfing you note but improving the mediocre.

Pickles

[Chazar]

I would also dislike it if forging requirements diverge from forging costs, but its probably better for balancing though...

Arryn said:
IMO, what makes Caelum so strong isn't that their units fly (...), but that they have a large air income to spend on equipping non-air SCs or summoning those air queens that you mention.

I've played Caelum quite a bit, and even with GaleGate up early on, you will never ever have enough air gems to supply all your mages with the gems the burn in every battle, not counting the obligatory StaffofStorms in every skirmish-group and those BagofWinds,etc. I found it easier to summon IceDevils with the Blood-sages I get than summoning AirQueens. The mobility, however, is a large boon, as your armies can always be kept busy and thus worth their cost & upkeep. It was the key to my success in a game against three allied opponents on the small Urgaia map, since I could use the same forces again and again to push them back in a round robin fashion as they were poorly coordinated (was sort of a introductory game for my friends ).
So I also guess that flying/teleporting is essential for SCs, because that is the reason why they can easily outrun any substantial no-SC invading forces; disabling the strategy to hit a big empire at different corners...

[Zen]

Graeme Dice said:
I just ran the numbers on fetishes through some calcs, and with F1N1, no hammer, and income of 5 fire gems per turn, at turn 100 you can have 139 built. You'll need to also factor in the cost of whatever is holding them. With a hammer it's 255 fetishes. At F2N2, the same numbers would be 33 and 69 respectively. That's with a huge number of fire gems alchemized into nature gems though, which might not necessarily be the case.

I did a few calculations while I'm waiting for some Ibuprofen to kick in and I think I've come up with a somewhat happy medium (though if you disagree, please give case analysis why)

Clam of Pearls
2W2S Forge Requirement

10W 10S. Dwarven Hammer = 7W7S

Investment 30 Turns from Pure Astral Standpoint or 21 Turns with Hammer.

Question: When do you hit critical mass of Clams? Or, how soon can you have 50 Clams and how many Water gems/Astral gems does this take? Personal Opinion (I don't know if this fixes anything or just delays it long enough that most people don't want to commit the kind of resources to try to horde, but *might* want to forge a few for a small astral income to support Gateway/Teleport needs. This probably goes back to the same old discussion of "Water Gems = teh sux" that I don't personally agree with.)

Fever Fetish
1F2N Forge Requirement
5F 10N. w/Dwarven Hammer = 3F, 7N

Investment 25 Turns from a Pure Fire Standpoint or 17 with Hammer.

Since you can now only put 1 Fever Fetish on a Scout at a time, it increases the micromanagment and need for Scouts if you want to 'shuffle' them around. I will not add in the "Black Servant" quota of +3D because we are looking for the really anal retentive people here who will go through all their scouts and shuffle off those Fever Fetishes and put them on a new scout when they are about to die for a slight advantage.

Question: When do you hit critical mass of Fever Fetishes? Or how soon can you have 50 Fever Fetishes and how many Fire/Nature gems does this take? (Personal Opinion. The shuffling is what always killed me, when people take an extra 20 minutes to shuffle their Fever Fetishes around on their Scouts during their turn, this tells me they need some therapy)

Bloodstone
3B2E Forge Requirement
20B 10E. w/Dwarven Hammer 15B7E

Investment 10 Turns from Pure Earth Gem Standpoint or 7 with Hammer.

Bloodstones are unique in the fact that the Blood Slave component makes them harder to horde, but at the same time, being Earth and having the same path as hammers, you're virtually guarenteed to be using hammers. They also have the benefit(or detriment) of being very hard paths to combine, which actually don't exist in any one nation without the use of boosters.

Question: Bloodstones are probably about perfect because of the two factors that are associated with them. Giving up even 15 Slaves for a potential +1 Earth Income isn't all that impressive unless you *need* the Earth to support some non-blood spells. That being said, what do you think?

[Zen]

Pickles said:
You mean "count as half"? Anyway I think it should be more like 25% - 35% they are very easy to come by.

Depending on the map. But I think half is a good standard. I don't know how many 1-3000 Provinces you get in any given game, but I get alot and those provinces are not blood worthy

Yeah this suffers from being one of 3 nature items. I like the L0 items and would any of them for early commanders depending on what I have access to. The knife seems worse than the spear though - there is a similar problem with 4 different earth items. As I favour swords over spears, perhaps incorrectly, there are real options (the axe just looks less good, but maybe duel wielding?).

Most of this depends on length. I usually choose a sword or a spear. A spear if I am inclined to defend, a sword if I need att. I'd say 75% of the time I chose a spear for the length. This might be a personal preference.

Two handed items at all levels seem too weak for the cost (with the obvious couple of exceptions, plus Flambeau now we know strength is tripled too). I think they need an accross the board boost to everything.

I feel this way as well. Though I can't fix some of these things with the modding tools, I can fix a portion of them.

L2 items introduce Bows. These are no use on SCs as they are not destructive enough. I mean to try them on everyday commanders who mainly try to avoid getting killed. I am not sure they would repay their gem cost but still it keeps everyone involved & feeling they are part of the team.

This is another one. I think it partially has to do with precision and partially to do with the fact the only bows I ever seem to use are to try to cripple SC's. Botuf, Ethereal xbow, Piercer, NoIinSC, etc. I also tend to think that most commanders have a pretty craptacular precision with the exception of a few.

Eek am I missing something or are the other weapons just generally inferior?

I have a smaller list that is categorized into fighting specific units. I think alot of this has to do with your gem income. You have to think to yourself, "What would I give my SC's if I couldn't give them a lifedrain weapon". While there are not alot of immediate things that pop to mind, there are a few.

Anyway I applaud this mod idea as there is definitely scope for more better weapons (oh & other items too) - not nerfing you note but improving the mediocre.

Pickles

I'd hope that is how the entire series is viewed. Some people have mentioned that they think the across the board, or 'too many changes' feel of the Pretender Mod, saying that "Fewer changes = better balance because you don't change too many variables, just fix the ones out of whack" which equates to nerfing everything down to the mediocre level. Unfortunately while there is tremendous variety in the game, after playing it and growing accustomed to the extreme strategies, you find the actual selection is far less than the offered selection because of basic mechanics (like Flying, or Life Draining).

[Chazar]

Zen said:
Question: Bloodstones are probably about perfect because of the two factors that are associated with them. Giving up even 15 Slaves for a potential +1 Earth Income isn't all that impressive unless you *need* the Earth to support some non-blood spells. That being said, what do you think?

Yep, I usually do Bloodstones for the Boost in EarthMagic only. That they generate EarthGems is nice to keep down micromanagement for the Earth-Exot-Mages, but I wouldnt have them sit around in a lab...

[Boron]

Hm perhaps you could make all hoarding items like clams horror marked and aditionally to this diseasing the wearer .
Then you can't be total sure that they pay off at least in the long run and need black servants or similiar to carry them .

Otherwise it is i think too hard to balance them because they become either totally cost ineffective or are still a good choice .

I am sure you have this in mind but i would like to see which costs you think of for hellswords and soul contracts to compare them with the other lifedrain / hoard weapons .