Drain Life

[Zapmeister]

I'm 100% behind Tuidjy's and the subsequent posts. I really hope the devs read this thread.

[FrankTrollman]

On the cost of Summonings angle:

Very basically the mark-up that people pay for distance summons that stay around is too high. That's why Call of the Wild and Arouse Hunger are too expensive. The cost break for summons that don't stay around is too high as well. Ghost Riders and Earth Attack are too cheap.

Very basically the mark-up that people pay for getting a spell at a low level of research is too high. Ice Drakes and Summon Animals are too expensive.

Very basically, the price hike for getting non-unique leaders out of your summons is usually too big. The Harbringer Angel is overcosted. The Archangel is even worse (partially because it is a distant summons that sticks around, and partially because it comes with a leader, it ends up simply costing about a millsion gazillion more gems than could possibly be justified).

-Frank

[PvK]

Huzurdaddi said:

You are saying that without a life drain weapon summonable commanders are not worth the gems. That sounds like a problem.

Sounds like Graeme's problem. One of my favorite part of the game is using thugs, rather than SC's... which, yes, mainly means not using life drain weapons, because they seem so out of balance price to effect.

I like armies of mortal troops, too, and Ulm and TC, so I guess I like most of Graeme's "don't bother" pile. Of course, though I've been playing Dom and Dom II for a couple of years and really enjoying it, I haven't played a whole lot of really competetive big-map high-magic games, haven't done much clam hoarding or SC using and have never cast Wish even once.

PvK

[Bummer_Duck]

The one trick that wins Dominions II is to always have a rock to the enemy's
scisors, which is why you will not see a good player whine about nerfing
'overpowered' stuff. There is no tactic without a counter. Fortunately, not
all races have all the tactics and counters... and unfortunately, some races
have too few counters, or none (Ulm)

What is the counters to Ghost riders?

[Verjigorm]

Currently, the best counter to Ghost Riders is a fortification.

[Vicious Love]

Verjigorm said:
Currently, the best counter to Ghost Riders is a fortification.

There's still something to be said for an abomination, or for an adequately-equipped astral mage.

One doesn't <i>need</i> to spam watch towers to defend against Ghost Riders, its simply the most cost-effective option. By a pretty broad margin.
I mean, for the price of an abomination, one could just bring up a dome that provides 50% coverage against all malign magical influences for a good 15 turns. For the price of two abominations in raw dirt, one can instantaneously erect a wizard's tower. And both spells are at lower research levels, too.

[Graeme Dice]

Bummer_Duck said:
What is the counters to Ghost riders?

Spells that don't tend to target lifeless troops, such as drain life, work very well, as they will go for the wraiths leading the horsemen.

[Bummer_Duck]

Verjigorm said:
Currently, the best counter to Ghost Riders is a fortification.

LOL. A fort is the best counter? and there are people who think it isn't overpowered? That's comical.

No wonder everyone spams cheap forts. I begin to see the reason for never selecting the other forts.

Logically then, Phantasmal Attack should be just as powerful as GR...is it? or is that underpowered in comparison?

[Bummer_Duck]

Graeme Dice said:
Spells that don't tend to target lifeless troops, such as drain life, work very well, as they will go for the wraiths leading the horsemen.

Hmmm...so you need a large army in every province to protect a couple mages that can probably only deal with 1 or 2 GR's. Or am I missing something?

[Verjigorm]

We can examine the cost of various counters:

Assumption: 6 gems = 100gp
Abomination Cost: 25 pearls (Level 9 Conj)
Dome of Arcane Warding: 10+ (Level 6 Ench)
Watchtower: 200gp (12 "gems") (Equiv. Level 0 Spell)
Ghost Riders: 5 gems (Level 9 Conj)

First, the Abomination:

Abominations have 4 attacks: 3 Life Drain attacks and 1 Gaze of Death. All of these effects are, generally, useless against a Wraith Lord, so it comes down to basic statistics--the Abomination is simply a better unit. It regenerates 27hp per round as well... Unfortunately, the Wraith Lord gets a Bane Blade, so he still has a chance to kill your precious, exensive Abomination. We'll take Bummer's assumption that an Abom can deter 1.5 GR spells... 1.5 X GR = 10 1 x Abom = 25.

Abomination is not cost effective

Dome of Arcane Warding: 10 + duration
DOAW blocks 50% of all GR spells. If a GR spell gets through the dome, and the province is not well-defended, the dome is destroyed and the gems wasted. Assuming 1 cast per round, the dome will probably be useful only 1 time (assumption: the dome works the first time and fails the second). 10 gems for 1 block costs opponent an extra 5 gems. DOAW is (very shakily) equivalent in cost to GR.

Watchtower: equivalent of 12 gems, blocks all GR castings.
Clearly this method is quite effective.

Some others:

Dome of Solid Air: Breaks when penetrated, 80% protection, cost 20 gems. This one is much more effective against GR, but it can be brought down (usually by a barrage of cheap spells e.g. Seeking Arrow).

Mechanical Militia: 5 mechanical men adds significant power to PD, but is it enough to combat GR? I haven't tested it. This spell however is expensive and dispellable.

Haunted Forest/Enchanted Forest: HF with death scale can provide some Manikin, Enchanted Forest with growth provides an increasing number of Vinemen (neither of which will run from the WL). Can they handle GR? I'm thinking HF = no, EF = no (unless you have an ungodly amount of them). Of course both spells are very costly and can be dispelled and possibly defeated by the GR.

Wizard's Tower (the spell) costs 50 gems, a lot more than a simple watchtower (or even Castles, Hill Forts etc.)

Three red Seconds costs 120 blood slaves. Blood nations can often achieve a sufficient hunting rate to make 1 a round, but a standard fortress is MUCH cheaper (you can't convert blood slaves to gold...unless you trade them to another player.)