Recruitable Mage Rebalance - seeking comments

[Saber Cherry]

There often seem to be summonable mages with high enough paths to cast high-level spells using boost items... such that only a single mage needs empowerment, and then it can summon many upkeep-free mages who can cast the spell. Depending on the spell and path, of course.

One aspect of increasing path costs to very high levels is that it might make the best combat spells in ANY path only usable by Astral nations (through communion). I don't know what can be done about that, though.

Battle-mages using low- and mid-level spells seem to really dominate combat even in the early game, though... it seems to me that Dominions II needs more effective low-level troop-buffing spells, not wimpy things that increase the aim of 3 units. Regardless, while there seem to be many comments that specific spells are problematic, does nobody else feel that battlefield spells in general dominate combat to the point that the specific types of troops used on the battlefield to shield the mages is largely irrelevant? If a soldier is doomed to die of lightning, does it matter how much defense, what kind of armor, what weapon, or how much experience he has? If some soldiers get through, it sort of matters. But in my experience, the vast bulk of soldiers in player-versus-player combat die of hostile spells... making the price-per-hitpoint, MR / immunities (if any), and flight / movement (get to the other side before dying of spells) the only really important unit stats.

Compared to what I envision of fantasy combat, it's really strange. A mage blowing away 50 soldiers in a single battle? That's fine, some mages are that powerful. Armies of mortals where 10% of the units are such mages? THAT is insane. No book, no mythology, nothing is like that - that I know of. Excepting, of course, games. Feel free to correct me, though; I haven't read as many fantasy books or as much mythology as many people here.

Increasing the price of mages increases the price of research and (more importantly) the cost of battle-mage turns. I think a sort of ideal situation would be one where at least as many units die from weapons as from battle magic (at least, until the late-game huge-area spells), and where mages are precious enough that it makes sense to give even mid-level wizards a 50-man escort and several protective artifacts (missile resistance amulet, lucky coin, etc) to ensure their safety... the sort of things wizards in books always seem to be carrying around, and the sort of respect they get from ordinary people. Am I alone in this?

[Turin]

Excellent post sabercherry.
I wonder how the game would be if every nation had philosopher like units for research and battle mages would be really expensive (500-1000 gp).

[The_Tauren13]

Saber Cherry said:
Am I alone in this?

Im with you all the way

[Truper]

Perversely, the lack of gold in Dom2 has a tendency to increase the mage/troop ratio. In Dom1, there was often enough gold that the limiting factor was castles/labs. One recruited as many mages as one had sites from which to do so, and used the leftover for troops. There tended to be discussions in those days about which troops were more cost effective vs which others, whereas now discussions revolve mostly around the employment of magic.

If what's wanted is "at least as many units [dying] from weapons as from battle magic", there are a number of ways to go about it, but a counter-intuitive solution that might work is to increase the amount of gold available, to the point where a player might as well recruit troops along with his mages. (Then of course, that idea might be as crazy as it appears on the surface

Another factor which tends to make mages perhaps too cost effective is that they are very hard to target. One can try flanking cavalry or groups of flyers with "attack rearmost", but in my experience that never results in said troops attacking the enemy mages - they'd prefer to move across the map to attack a single limping militia, rather than target the mages using (insert battlefield spell here) to kill them in droves. I'd actually advocate the return of the attack/fire mages order in Dom3, although I understand that that doesn't help anybody now.

[Huzurdaddi]

I have to say that sounds like an interesting mod Saber Cherry. I say : make it so.

Although I think I may want to play Jotunhiem. Or a heavy bless effect. One of the two.

[Evil Dave]

Saber Cherry said:
One aspect of increasing path costs to very high levels is that it might make the best combat spells in ANY path only usable by Astral nations (through communion). I don't know what can be done about that, though.

Cap the effect of communion, maybe?

it seems to me that Dominions II needs more effective low-level troop-buffing spells, not wimpy things that increase the aim of 3 units.

I've been idly wondering about simply knocking all the mass-improvement spells down two or three levels, but I haven't the foggiest idea what this would do to game balance.

And, as a further special case, replacing Ulm's starting spell with Weapons of Sharpness.

[Huzurdaddi]

Graeme Dice said:
I'd just switch to skull standards at that point, because 12 armour negating, auto-hitting life drain damage is probably a better bet than whatever the weapon damage would be.

And they would suck. You don't add strength to that damage. And against lifeless units you lose all of the time, period, end of story.

[Saber Cherry]

Evil Dave said:
Cap the effect of communion, maybe?

Unfortunately, that cannot be done through mods.

I've been idly wondering about simply knocking all the mass-improvement spells down two or three levels, but I haven't the foggiest idea what this would do to game balance.

Some of those are really, really strong. If only there were weaker versions... of course, they're only strong if you fight with fighting units instead of mages, which people tend not to do. The big problem is that defensive spells are used offensively. You don't know when and where mages will teleport in and cast "Shimmering Fields" or "Wrathful Skies," so you won't have a high-level air mage ready with air gems, scripted to cast mass-lightning resistance. But if you already know you are going to teleport an army somewhere and cast lighting spells, you can have a mage ready to cast mass lighting protection. So... I tend to think that a lot of mass-improvement spells tend to make mages more offensively powerful, rather than less. But it probably depends on the styles of the players. Weaker version that do not require gems (say, 50% lightning resistance to 25 area, or 75% resistance to 5 area) would more likely be used defensively... I imagine.

And, as a further special case, replacing Ulm's starting spell with Weapons of Sharpness.

That's an interesting thought, and more useful than their current spell. But it would much more powerful than other nations' starting spells, and they can't hope to cast it unless the pretender takes Earth magic and is present in all the battles. Mechanical Militia (even though it's level 9), Strength of Giants, or Magma Bolts might be more fair. Strength of Giants would probably be quite useful.

Anyway, thanks for the comments!

[Graeme Dice]

Huzurdaddi said:
And they would suck. You don't add strength to that damage

It's superior to a wraith sword if your commander has less than 3 more strength than the protection of the units he is facing. Depending on your enemies, 12 damage will be enough to kill them in one hit anyways. It also never misses, so you don't have to worry about missing an Allfather running around with air 9 and a defense score in the 30's. Plus, you'd get two of them for each wraith sword at that cost.

And against lifeless units you lose all of the time, period, end of story.

Well, except for a few cases, most lifeless units are best dealt with via a charcoal shield. No amount of life drain is ever going to help you there.

[The_Tauren13]

Graeme Dice said:
Plus, you'd get two of them for each wraith sword at that cost.

Youre making the foolish assumption that the skull standards cost would remain the same under such a mod.