Warsaw Pact and TI

[Marek_Tucan]

Addition to the topic, Czech Republic is replacing old IR sights iwth new LLTV sights on BVP-2 IFV's.

[BaronvonBeer]

The variant with the AT-9 (MTLB ATGM system) is said to have "low visibility" day/night engagement capability. As to what that means literally... If it has none, at least provides a plausible best guess of the previous variant not having the capability.

Also, speaking of AT6, will it get Top attack capability? The missile by design flies above the target point, and dives at final stage. One of the things that made it desirable over the existing ATGM types.

Dunno if that qualifies as "true" top attack in the Tow-2B sense, since the warhead does not nescesarily hit as close to perpendicular, but its certainly a step up from direct LOS aim/impact point.

Most sources describe this characteristic, but just one from a quick search to post something http://www.armada.ch/02-6/complete_02-6.pdf Pg 54

[DRG]

Here's what one source says

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/shturm/

the missile proceeds on an overfly trajectory until it approaches the target, allowing the gunner to acquire and maintain tracking on the target in limited visibility conditions.

and this gives a diagram of the missles trajectory. It does not appear to be a true "top attack" missle .
http://www.army-technology.com/proje...m/shturm5.html


Don

[Siddhi]

i am aware of the difference between II, IR, and TI, thought the post made it clear, i was actually refering to smersh`s post about "IR sights being retrofitted on T-80s".

The TPN-1-49-23 on the average T-72 is a "night sight" with engagement ranges up to 1,200m. With the LUNA IR-Lamp (there are in fact a number of different IR lamps attached to the average T-72) the range increases, how much I am not sure. In any case Infantry targets can be made out on average conditions WITHOUT Luna up to 600m. The Luna helps penetrate smoke and fog, although prolly not very far.

Not so sure that they were as bad an idea as you suggest. During their time (1975-85) they were the equivilant of the best the west had to offer in AFVs, and the LUNA lamp was very very useful for directing fire. When we had them that was one of their primary functions.

However, all off-topic to the degree that they are not TI systems. Just trying to make sure that when the ORBATs are adjusted they get the 20 or 25 rating vision that these sightes entitel them to.

[PlasmaKrab]

Going out on a limb here, I'd say that some of the most recent Russian tanks (T-64B, T-72B, T-80, T-90) could be entitled a vision rating around 30. Same for some of the latest non-TI night sights like the German PZB-200 (see Leo1A1A2 etc.).

Back to topic now, has anyone any info about local (e.g. Czechoslovakian, Polish, Yugoslavian pre-'90 thermal sights variants? I think all of the non-Russian 90s upgrade use import thermals, but that's it AFAIK.

Now if you're going to clean the Russian OBF from all the undesired TIs, don't forget that a vision of 40 can also model GSRs, like that on the early BRMs. To my best knowledge the original BRM-1 (model 1976) already had a pop-up GSR with a quoted detection range of 12km.
Also, what about the BRM-2? I couldn't find any data about a dedicated recon version of the BMP-2, where does the idea come from?

[mr_clark]

Well, I can say that many WP countries produced their own IR/Nightsight equipment.

AFAIK in East Germany Tanks were equipped during first overhaul with Carl Zeiss made devices, as they had quite some improved performance over the original Soviet parts.#
I'll try to find some more info on that, but it will be hard as this is not widely advertised...

[DRG]

PlasmaKrab said:
<snip>
Now if you're going to clean the Russian OBF from all the undesired TIs, don't forget that a vision of 40 can also model GSRs, like that on the early BRMs. To my best knowledge the original BRM-1 (model 1976) already had a pop-up GSR with a quoted detection range of 12km.
<snip>

The ACRV and PRP "FO Vehicles" that use the "SMALL FRED" radar are untouched. It was primarily the Hinds that were the problem not the tanks. Also, it's not just the Russian and Warsaw pact that is being looked at here. My original question just asked when they started using it because I could not find a source that definitively answered that question and I would have thought 20 -25 years after the fact it would have been better documented

As well, there seems some concern that the IR gear Russian tanks carried will represented correctly. It is. I'm not sure where this concern comes from. All the Russian ( and WP ) tanks ( unless they are old t-34's )have IR gear represented in the 70's in the OOB's you have now.

Don

[PN79]

PlasmaKrab said:

Back to topic now, has anyone any info about local (e.g. Czechoslovakian, Polish, Yugoslavian pre-'90 thermal sights variants? I think all of the non-Russian 90s upgrade use import thermals, but that's it AFAIK.

Czechoslovakia had 2 TI sights in development in late '80.
The first one was determined for new SP-AAA STROP and the second one for new BPzV based on BVP-2 (the first BPzV Svatava which entered service in 1988 was based on BVP-1 and had GSR). Both project was not completed from obvious reasons (although later Slovakia developed their BRAMS which is in fact continuator of STROP).

However many recon vehicels used GSR like OT-65RL which were part of recon company in tank regiment.

[Kuklinovsky]

Two remarks about Warsaw Pact's visual observation abilities:

1. You seem to forget about Soviet battlefield radars at all.

2. Lack of TI in WP armies wasn't so important because they could always illuminate battlefield by flares and flash bombs at night. In fact Mi-24s and Soviet armor were to act that way. Moreover Central Europe isn't Persian Gulf desert. Almost all WP-NATO tank battles would be waged here at less than 2 km distance, pretty much enough for IR and LLTV sights capabilities.

[mr_clark]

Yes I totally agree to that, but in Heavy Smoke (which is a likely battlefield event) TI tanks would still penetrate it further then IR or "Stargoggle" equipped vehicles.

Gamewise the loss of the TI Hinds surely makes it more challenging to play WP campaigns...