Pls explain how early summoning spells are useful

[Gandalf Parker]

In other word Wolves is better for flanking, and Swarm for an instant front-line attention getter. So if I didnt have units that I preferred for front-line distraction and I didnt have units I preferred for flankers, then Id do well using those spells. It doesnt sound like it would be a this-or-that choice.

In fact, it sounds as if a combination of the two would be great. Maybe with a slight pause such as both of them being scripted to be the second or third spell to cast.

[danm]

Shovah32 said:
How about just setting them to fire closest with a fire resistant unit infront set to attack closest?

My experience with that(EA Abyssia and Agartha) is that they gleefully outrun their supposed blockers in their excitement to get into firing range -- usually ending up just far enough ahead to be finished off just before their "protectors" catch up.

I'm sure there's a way to tweak starting positions/etc to get it to work, but it seems trickier than it should be. And any mistake means they are toast.

An AI tweak to force short-ranged artillery set to "fire closest" to try to stay [range] squares behind the "front" would potentially "fix" a lot of units that are only marginally useful now.

Failing that -- adding a "hold and fire ___" command would probably accomplish the same thing with less dev effort -- give the lines a chance to form, and then step in and throw your fireballs/boulders/etc.

[Shovah32]

Just place the drakes a little further back or the blockers a little further forward(and with fire resistant blockers make sure they are attacking rather than holding and attacking)

[danm]

yeah, I've probably been too excited about making sure they don't "loose rounds" getting to the fight.

Next time I play Abyssia, I'll try starting them even further back and see how that works for improving longevity

[Teraswaerto]

If you have enough melee troops in front the drakes will never get a chance to engage the enemy even if they are close to the front line.

[Shovah32]

True, a wide line of melee troops should prevent the drakes passing them.

[merlinme]

I have a problem with a couple of the Nature summons. Summon Treelord gets you a static N4 commander with no hand slots. Summon Ivy King gets you a mobile N3 commander, who you can give the staff which gives you a N2 bonus, so he should be able to reach a higher level than the Treelord.

I've never had any joy with Ivy Men, and I'm not much of a fan of Ivy Ogres. They have protection of something like 3, and they just drop like flies beneath any sort of ranged attack. I might give them another try, using the Ivy King with the Crown of the Ivy King (and there may be another magic item as well which gives you bonuses, I forget). But one of my main goals when building an army is to have troops which will last. The experience helps, but it's just so much more effective if you can build an army which is capable of capturing a few provinces without having to stop and wait for reinforcements. Vine Men/ Ogres rarely last more than one or two battles (in my admittedly fairly limited experience). I experimented a bit using them in an army which used a lot of poison, but most of the time I'd prefer to have undead, if I want poison immunity. I tend to think there are better uses of your gems and mages' time.

A couple of comments I would make on the list of 'Good' 'Bad' and 'Ugly' summons: playing as Oceania against a nation with a lot of missile troops, I used just about all the Ethereal spells I could get my hands on, including Ether Gate. Yes it's expensive, but in the circumstances where you have lots of gems and very few troops you can fight with on land, it can be worth it. Once I'd established my beachhead, I then used Summon Animals/ Summon Pride of Lions/ Summon Animal Horde, as I had plenty of nature gems, and you can't really build an army around Mermen and Seatrolls on their own. I even cast Horned Serpents a couple of times. They're not great value for money, but they're the only animals with reasonable protection, so have some staying power against arrows.

The Animal Horde consumes an enormous amount of food, and the low protection means they tend to only last one or two battles. But it's a very cost effective use of nature gems if you want to build an army fast. You can have 100 animals for 30 gems in one turn, and I'd take that over almost any number of Ivy Ogres.

I guess what you may have gathered from this is that almost all the summoning spells can be of use in right circumstances, it depends on the nation you're using and what your needs are for gems vs. money at any one point in time.

[Shovah32]

If you find vine men/ogres too vunerable try spells like mass protection, mass regeneration, will of the fates and other protection/survivability boosting spells.

[BigDisAwesome]

you could say that for anything though shovah. put those same spells on a less vulnerable unit and instead of going from bad to ok, you go from ok to good.

[Ewierl]

The power of Vine Ogres is the mass of cheap HP they provide. Their staying power depends entirely on HP instead of protection, and their speed-of-output is slow compared to animals. But if you have time to accumulate them, they're very cheap; even if you only have an Ivy Crown, you're getting >100 HP for only 2 nature gems, and that ratio goes up to 200-250 once you start getting Treelords' Staves and Ivy Kings.

I agree that the Treelords themselves suck, though. I've never found any particularly good use for them, except as a side course during an Enchantment-school rush.