Moving Through Multiple Provinces

[capnq]

I can't think of a single game I own that has pathfinding that I'd describe as "good". Apparently it's more difficult to code than it looks.

I can't remember ever using the monthly ritual hotkey, for that matter. Micromanagement FTW.

[SlipperyJim]

Originally Posted by capnq

I can't think of a single game I own that has pathfinding that I'd describe as "good". Apparently it's more difficult to code than it looks.

I cannot tell you how much I agree with your observation. The pathfinding problem is particularly onerous in many RTS games. I'll frequently click a group of units, click a destination, and then go on to another task. Several minutes later, I go to check on my wandering units, and I discover that half of them have gotten stuck on some sort of obstacle. The other half of my troops went straight to their destination and got slaughtered because they didn't have enough support.

Actually, I can think of one game with a decent pathfinding engine: Civ4. But that's the only one.

Originally Posted by capnq

I can't remember ever using the monthly ritual hotkey, for that matter. Micromanagement FTW.

I use the monthly ritual commands for remote site searching and some summonings. Put a couple of necromancers in a lab, set them to summon Wights every month, and you can have quite a respectable force in short order.

That said, I totally agree with lch's point about the drawbacks in the automated remote site-searching. I use it gladly, but there are a few shortcomings in the way it determines which sites to search. On the one hand, I really don't want to waste gems and mage-turns to search captured enemy capitals. I already know which site will be in Niefel's capital -- it's Niefelheim, thanks -- and I don't need to search for it. On the other hand, it would also be good if my remote site searchers would be willing to search a province that had already been searched by a level-1 or level-2 mage, because that first search could have missed a site or two. I gladly use the automated remote site-searching, and I consider it to be a huge boon to the gamer, but it's definitely not perfect.

[Loren]

Originally Posted by SlipperyJim

That said, I totally agree with lch's point about the drawbacks in the automated remote site-searching. I use it gladly, but there are a few shortcomings in the way it determines which sites to search. On the one hand, I really don't want to waste gems and mage-turns to search captured enemy capitals. I already know which site will be in Niefel's capital -- it's Niefelheim, thanks -- and I don't need to search for it. On the other hand, it would also be good if my remote site searchers would be willing to search a province that had already been searched by a level-1 or level-2 mage, because that first search could have missed a site or two. I gladly use the automated remote site-searching, and I consider it to be a huge boon to the gamer, but it's definitely not perfect.

The basic problem is that it doesn't attempt to rank targets, it's using too simplistic an approach.

It shouldn't be too hard to build a table of precalculated odds: Current search level, terrain type and path being searched. The mage should consider each province and cast at the one with the highest probability. Terrain type capital would have a zero probability.

[vfb]

Originally Posted by Edratman

VFB,

"I wouldn't even bother trying to get the armies into formation until they get to the front lines."

Tried this plan myself. Three problems:
1. Forgot to to put army into formation.
2. Got attacked unexpectedly.
3. I script my mages when I put armies into formation. Got attacked unexpectedly.

Your plan probably only works for people smarter than me. So for me and the two others not in that exclusive club, we will have problems waiting to put armies into formation.

Ha ha ha I like your sense of humour.

But I'm specifically talking about LA Ermor here, not in general. Would not dream of doing that with other nations.

[thejeff]

At one point I threw together a mod that added a capital site to every nation that only had one. Did nothing except keep the automated site searching from targeting capitals. It should be somewhere on the mod page.

[Ironlord]

Thanks to all for the advice. I am new to the game, though I have lurked a bit. I play Civ4 alot, so that is what I was thinking when I decided to give Ermor a try and discovered the massive numbers of spawn this nation gets.

[SlipperyJim]

Originally Posted by Ironlord

Thanks to all for the advice. I am new to the game, though I have lurked a bit. I play Civ4 alot, so that is what I was thinking when I decided to give Ermor a try and discovered the massive numbers of spawn this nation gets.

Free piece of advice (and worth as much as you paid for it): LA Ermor plays very differently from just about any other nation in Dom3. Try playing a few games as some of the other nations first. That will enable you get a better feel for how Dom3 works, and then you can jump back into directing massive hordes of the undead....

There are many suggestions for new Dom3 players. Personally, I like MA Marignon. You get powerful priests, fun Fire magic, spies, and assassins. Your troops are decent but not outstanding, except for the Knights of the Chalice, which are quite good. And you get some amazing late-game summons to pimp out with all of the cool gear.

MA Ulm is another classic choice for new players. Your troops are excellent. However, your magic is very weak, so this choice won't allow you to experience much of the magic part of Dom3. And the magic part of Dom3 is most of the game, so....

[licker]

I must say the bulk of you completely miss the point.

It does not have to be pathfinding afterall. You can set up your movement however you like, and the file can simply store the movement command to the next province# in your chain. Is this massive bloat? Seems doubtful to me, unless you intentionally make huge move chains, but even there you could cap the length of the chain at 5 or some other arbitrary number.

This is not rocket science, this is not reinventing anything, this is really really simple, and even if you would never use it, others obviously would use it.

I get the whole the devs don't give a crap about the SP game (and if that sounds harsh, its also basically true), but this is an ease to micro which would be used frequently, even if it was only to add one extra province move as you are ferrying move 1 troops 2 provinces.

I'm not talking about linking moves and actions to create some kind of search or pickup automation (though that would also be cool), I'm talking about an ability to chain move commands via some kind of way point system. Scrap any notion of path finding, that's not needed.

Sometimes I think that Dom IV would be better served by not trying to expand the content, but rather to simply refine what there already is by making the turns flow more smoothly, and a huge part of that would be reducing the amount of needless micro, as well as improving certain other aspects such as equiping commanders, setting up the tactical battles, ...

All that aside though, that's not germane to anything added to Dom3. Add the shortcut to move gems (like blood slaves), add a monthly forging command, add a monthly move command (set a destination, and every turn the commander moves towards it in the shortest path possible, hell this is even easier than waypoints or pathfinding since nothing is stored in the file other than a Move to provinceX, and if provinceX becomes unreachable just pop up a message and cancel the order, this already happens when you run out of gems for monthly rituals, though not the message...).

Seriously, I don't see the resistance to this, until a dev says its too hard to code. I won't pretend to know what it would take to add it, and I don't really think any of you should pretend that either.

[lch]

Originally Posted by licker

I must say the bulk of you completely miss the point.

It does not have to be pathfinding afterall. You can set up your movement however you like, and the file can simply store the movement command to the next province# in your chain. Is this massive bloat? Seems doubtful to me, unless you intentionally make huge move chains, but even there you could cap the length of the chain at 5 or some other arbitrary number.

[...]

Seriously, I don't see the resistance to this, until a dev says its too hard to code. I won't pretend to know what it would take to add it, and I don't really think any of you should pretend that either.

I didn't miss your point, my argument was "it's going to be too much work for too little gain, and buggish" from the start. You're right, a chain of provinces to move to, set by the player by hand, would be the easiest approach and would eliminate a number of problems by making the player responsible for the route that he chose. But as I said, this is still decidedly non-trivial. Consider the following:

First, you need to be aware of your armies potential when moving. Because as you are aware, units may have Forest survival and similar skills, hence moving faster or slower through specific terrain. No problem you say, just walk as far as you can each turn. Give them 1 map move orders for the entire chain and then try to travel as far as possible along that chain as you can every turn. Very well, but what if that chain is getting broken by enemies taking a province that was once yours in the meantime? If it was the end point in a 2 map move or 3 map move movement, then you'll have to travel to the province before that, and then take the province back. You'll probably want to address that enemy army first and move somewhere where you're better defended. Things get tricky. All in all, vfb already summed up nicely a couple of points that I have against a feature like this.

Regarding site searching: It is my impression that the game so far just isn't aware about what provinces are capitals. Thus capitals are being sitesearched just like every other province. It would of course be problematic to include the info what all the capitals are in the turn files, because people could then extract that information and abuse it. But it might be a good idea to add a new flag (as in a bit in the province bitmask) for capitals, so that the mages can skip this province even if the site searching order was given during the client's turn preparation.

[vfb]

I'm sure if this is ever implemented, the first time I try it, I'll get bogged down in a swamp, spend a couple months starving in the deserts, and then leave the entire regiment of troops in Inkpot End as my water-breathing commander passes through a water province, only to end up getting killed as he attacks the enemy all by himself. Charge!