Merkava.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Marek_Tucan

The described 1973 scene is a bit of old PR trick The soldiers were fully armed, not fully kitted, and the same with Merkava used.
Otherwise IDF would have to either employ exceptionally small soldiers, or warp time and space, or would not fight a long design battle around how many soldiers would fit into Namer.
Shermans were also used to transport numerous soldiers to a besieged unit on Okinawa and to evacuae he wounded, the record was IIRC something like 12 soldiers beng caried on one trip, but that does hardly make the Sherman an APC - and it certainly wasn't combat-capable in such a configuration.

PERSONALLY I belive they can and do carry troops. How many "typically" is the issue. I've seen photos of STUG III's with 20 + troops on top... that's doesn't mean we allow that carry capacity in the game and just becasue 12 troops are shown spilling out...... well...... I saw a guy make a train disapear on AGT.... so what? Pick the 12 smallest guys in green you can find and presto.... 12 guys appear. Four to eight I could see "typically" but it would be nice to hear what the real answer is from a source that isn't hopelessly amaturish or potentially Israeli propaganda.

Don

[DRG]

.......OR your all could take this to tanknet were there ARE people who know WTF they are talking about.
Let me know what the result is before the next release.

I have been quite willing to add infanrty carry capabilities to this tank since the first reports came back that it could carry combat troops and IMHO it's WAY past due this "issue" was put to rest one way or the other but it's not going to happen here otherwise we wouldn't be listening to the "yes they can"- "no they can't" cyclical arguments.

Don

[Marek_Tucan]

Re. Sherman, nope, in the inside, because the cut-off unit was behind a wide open valley drenched in MG and mortar fire. Entry and exit via escape hatch.
Same method used for CASEVAC and even for ammo resupply.
That's why did I mention it.
There was a pic of UAZ utility vehicle loaded with at least 13 soldiers. Same for a story about a British medical NCO being allowed by German tank commander only one trip to his positions to collect British wounded. Sure, in emergency (or just for the heck of it) you can squeeze people very tightly. But then I would doubt the MKerk carrying 13 wounded was combat-capable in such situation. Providing fire from its own weapons? Sure, why not, Comamnder and Loader have their hatches and machineguns, plus possibly (depending on access to it) the 60mm mortar.
Main gun? Sorry, but at best in dire emergency. If nothing elce, hot case or case stub is really NOT healthy and can potentially make more mess than any RPG hit.

Just a simple question: If Merkava is able to carry "10 fully armed and equipped soldiers" in the inside without any hindrance to its capability...
Why the heck took design of Namer so much time and why the heck was there a problem to fit even one fully kitted squad? In comparison to Merk, if Merk was able to fit 10 "without problems", then Namer should be able to carry how many. given the absence of turret? 15? 16? So there should be no problems in fitting 10 in there, right? But there are.

You just need to realise, that "emergency use" can be hardly made a rule. Sure, for example a Czech Liberator wa able to return home at night in storm over North sea with just two engines running doe 3 hours on emergency power (allowed for 15 minutes only). Does that mean all Liberators were able to run all time on WEP? A "record-breaking" IDF Centurion survived ca. 40 penetrating and non-penetrating hits from RPGs and ATGMs in 1973, does that mean all Centurions should be totally impervious to anything but tactical nuke? another Cent was able to rescue crew from another tank, does that mean it should be given a 4 troops internal carry capacity?

[kevineduguay1]

"A single double piece vertical
rear compartment door was incorporated to allow for easy entry, exit and reloading of ammo while under fire. At times the rear area is used for armor
personnel carrier for 8 combat troops. 10 is possible and 3 man command post, 3 station med-evac with medical team is also an option among some of
the popular configurations." Lt. Amos

1982 Lebanon,
BELOW MERKAVA COMBAT TEAM MEMBER BEING DEPLOYED

These troops were carried into battle by Merks in squads of 6, 8 and even 10 men."

" Now...
there IS most surely a rear compartment area and it Does Surely exist as can be seen here.
Special Ops will deploy 7 plus squad leader while 10 combat troops were carried in 1978
during 1st public roll out and recently the Mark 4's during 2006 conflict. A Medical team is
now fielded in ten special unmarked Tankbulances that are getting the Trophy APS installed.
They have 1 doc plus 2 orderly's with 3 casualty stations. A Forward Command Post with 5
specialist depending we're talking about a company, brigade or battalion Merkava. See below.
1000's of IDF troops have ridden inside Merkava troop compartments over the past 30 years.
It's true that all the main gun 120mm ammo makes for one very cramped riding condition but,
I never saw anyone complaining of too much ammo! "

[kevineduguay1]

Even the model makers know about the troop compartment....

"Below model is shown with rear hatch double door closed but CAN, with some
difficulty be displayed with hatch open & interior layout complete for 8 troops"

[DRG]

Look.. if you are going "quote" a source PROVIDE THE LINK TO IT

OK ?

Don

[Mobhack]

As regards any troop carrying Merkavas.

We have to take cognisance of the fact that this capability is a 'party trick' that is in reality only of use in very special circumstances in the real world.

Now - should we make a merkava as an APC class, wargamers would simply stop buying namer etc APC as there would be "no need for these". But the Israelis are still building APCs, even ones based on the merkava chassis. So there must be some "need" for such in the real world.

All videos I have seen of any such deployment of infantry from merkavas shows only troops in belt equipment order. No packs, no sign of any heavy weapons (LMG, AT weaponry etc). In other words - there is little or no room for anything else other than personal weapons in the tunnel of the thing.

No doubt the infantry cannot carry any useful load when sardine-canned in there. They probably have to be very good friends with each other too !. The game does not however, have any fatigue levels to apply to such a sardine pack after some rough country crossing.

We could make a "merkava dismount team" with reduced ammo, no heavy weaponry etc to reflect the light belt order - but if they were 8 or 9 men, then the wargamers would naturally ignore those units and stuff in para squads, rifle sections etc. to make up the carry capacity of 8 or 9 as the game has no way to limit the infantry carried. Wargamers will exploit any loophole they can.

I think that at the best, a carry of 4 would be the most I would ever credit them with. Maybe 6 to alow sayret scouts (sp). That would allow a scout team or a bailed tank crew. An APC class to allow the protected flag to be set, so they don't get hosed off the back deck by MG fires. And then merkavas would need to be in another unit class from the MBTs (or umpteen duplicated APC slots would be needed). The AI also handles APCs differently from MBT (it will probably scarf up any loose scouts, inf-at etc and load them into such "APC"). It will drop and retire these (maybe good, maybe expose their rear ends) and attempt to shuttle troops with them. APCs are not tanks to the AI!.

There would also be no formations of merkava (APC) with integral infantry though - any pax would be random pick-ups. The tank units don't command the dismounts.

But firstly kevineduguay1 - go to tanknet (http://208.84.116.223/forums/index.php?act=idx) and set up an account there and post a question on the practicalities of the merkava's alleged dismount capability in the AFV forum there. I'll monitor the response from the experts. I'm more interested in what they have to say than some amateur enthusiast's website.

Should they think it is in some way practical, then we can think about it for the next patch.

Cheers
Andy

[kevineduguay1]

DRG,

Sorry about that. Almost if not all quotes are from the site I posted on page 1 of this thread. Most are on the opening page and some are contained in the links on that page.

Mobhack,

On real World need,

Durring the Lebanon conflicts the Israelis had no real heavy APCs that could stand up to the huge amount of RPGs and ATGMs operated by the enemy. The 113s, Pumas, and Achzarit could have hardly been expected to stand up to such weapons without loosing many men and vehicles. At this time the Namer was only a dream. You still need infantry to cover your tanks, even the mighty Merkava has its limits. The solution was loading the infantry into the Merkava. They could ride to where they were needed under the heavy armor of these tanks, deploy where needed, and have the advantage of having a MBT for supporting fire.

If you look at the pic on the site I posted most if not all the troops have some sort of backpack. It's not the size of the one carried by U.S. troops but is there none the less. One pic is a view from inside showing 4 soldiers on the way out and they all have packs on.
Maybe no LMG but a SAW for sure. I have already made clear that no TOW teans, Dragons, Spikes, Or Javalins should be carried inside the Merkava. A LAW size weapon would be no problem. Besides with a MBT for fire support what do you need anti-tank weapons for?
Yes they are packed in tight. As much was said on the site I mentioned above.

Merkava dismount teams,

No real need for these. In my experiments I use a Sayeret section and add a sniper or two. This will have to be up to the individual player as it is in real life. But only 8 men and no heavy weapons. Carry capacity 8.

Class,

I classed mine as Unit Class 127 Gun APC but have not experimented with the AI useing the Merkava with this classification. And like you mentioned this could be a problem for the AI.

Formations,

I did not put any infantry in my formations either. Again this should be up to the player. Some sort of Merk Infantry formation may be nessessary for the AI to use. This would be quite the experiment.

I have registered at Tanknet and will ask the question to see what comes up.

The author of the Amateur site I posted is an Israeli tanker. His tank is the "Black Mamba" a MkIV. Pictures of his tank and crew are also on the site.

Hope I covered everything. I'll get the question posted on Tanknet.

[kevineduguay1]

Did'nt get clearence to post on tanknet yet but found this video link to Youtube. enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXvj_A6BgeU

[kevineduguay1]

This and the above videos show troops leaving the rear compartment from a view inside the tank. First man out has a LMG, last man out has a radio set. Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bI-d8RuPnDo


Still no word from Tanknet. Im registered but can't post.