Cross country speeds - Page 3

DRG · #21 October 7th, 2016, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cross

I thought the LRDG vehicles had been given 4WD status because they were adapted and stripped down for cross-country desert operations. They all had sand ramps as standard equipment. I recall reading that they had better desert cross-country ability than many 4WD vehicles, but I'd have to search for that reference.

I believe the Kubelwagen and a few other vehicles - like Motorcycles - were also given 4WD status because of their cross-country reputation.

Cross

You are correct.

Don

IronDuke99 · #22 October 8th, 2016, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRG

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cross

I thought the LRDG vehicles had been given 4WD status because they were adapted and stripped down for cross-country desert operations. They all had sand ramps as standard equipment. I recall reading that they had better desert cross-country ability than many 4WD vehicles, but I'd have to search for that reference.

I believe the Kubelwagen and a few other vehicles - like Motorcycles - were also given 4WD status because of their cross-country reputation.

Cross

You are correct.

Don

There is the famous case of the LRDG sand chanelling up a main road in Cairo for a joke...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yxnyvcfiho

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFwR1m9X5XU

DRG · #23 October 8th, 2016, 10:18 AM

LRDG Unit and formation end dates revised per info in that video

Kiwikkiwik · #24 November 17th, 2016, 05:46 AM

I have redone the cross country spreadsheet. It now contains Max speeds and Cross Country speeds in hexes and is attached to this post.
The new attached updated spreadsheet lists each of the book vehicles in every OOB they appear in. In this post is limited data for just a few OObs for example.
I have only listed vehices that appear in my books. The list could be easily expanded by using the internet.
I think the vehicles Max hex speed should be one third of real speed? It often isnt. This discrepency is listed in the spreadsheet as the ratio, Book Max Speed/Game Max Speed.
Light weight versions of some vehicles are often faster in your data than the origional. This is usually not right because the gearing is unchanged. Kangaroo is an eample of this, these are corrected in the sreadsheet according to the book values.
Unlisted SP guns using listed tank chassis probably have similar values to original tank chassis values, like stug, ISU etc.
USA unit 001 Combt car M1 has book cross country speed of 15-20 I used 18.
Yugoslavia unit 100 AEC Mk II is class light tank should be heavy AC?
Slovac Republic unit 32 PzKw IIc is class armoured car should be tank?
Spain unit 417 CV-35 is class armoured car should be light tankette?
BT tanks are exceptional. Power to weight ratio is 36.5 (T34 is 19). Difficult to see if book quoted Max speeds are for tracks on or off, probably off.
Several tanks have different speeds according to which OOB they are in. Mainly small OOBs like Greece Spanish. These are corrected in the sreadsheet.

From my previous post, the LRDG do have sand ramps but these dont count because they are only used after being bogged?
The only modifications these vehicles had were desert tyres and the doors and roof removed.
LRDG is still very heavy, 1.361 kg and a long wheelbase, 134" compared to a kubelwagon 715 kg, wheelbase 94" which also has desert tyres, but also a flat bottom and the motor over the drive wheels, not over the undriven axel as in the LDGR.

Nation Vehicle Book Game Book Game
Road Road RoughRough
SpeedSpeedDiffSpeedSpeedDiff
Hex Hex Hex Hex Hex Hex
France AMC 34 YR 13 13 0 10 6 4
France AMC 35 13 13 0 10 6 4
France AMR 33 VM 18 18 0 10 9 1
France AMR-35 20 20 0 10 10 0
France Char B 11 9 2 5 4 1
France Char B bis 9 8 1 5 4 1
France Char B ter 9 10 1 5 5 0
France FCM 2C/bis 4 6 2 2 3 1
France FCM 36 8 8 0 4 4 0
France FT-17 3 6 3 2 3 1
France H-35 9 11 2 4 5 1
France H-39 12 12 0 5 6 1
France R-35 6 8 2 4 4 0
France R-40 7 8 1 4 4 0
France Renault 40 7 8 1 4 4 0
France Renault D1 6 6 0 3 3 0
France Renault D2 8 8 0 5 4 1
France Somua S-35 16 14 2 7 7 0
Germany Flakpanzer 38 14 14 0 6 7 1
Germany Jagdpanther 15 15 0 5 7 2
Germany Jagdtiger 11 12 1 4 6 2
Germany JPz IV/48 F/1&213 13 0 5 6 1
Germany JPz IV/70V 12 12 0 5 6 1
Germany Kfz 70 Protze 23 20 3 11 10 1
Germany Las 762 18 13 5 6 6 0
Germany Marder I 37L 12 12 0 2 6 4
Germany Marder I 39H 12 12 0 2 6 4
Germany Marder II 13 14 1 6 7 1
Germany Marder III H 16 13 3 6 6 0
Germany Marder III M 16 14 2 6 7 1
Germany Moebelwagen 13 14 1 6 7 1
Germany Nashorn 13 13 0 5 6 1
Germany Ostwind 12 13 1 6 6 0
Germany Panther 15 17 2 10 8 2
Germany Panzerjager I 10 14 4 3 7 4
Germany Hetzer 14 13 1 5 6 1
Germany PzKpfw 38t 14 14 0 5 7 2
Germany PzKpfw I A 12 13 1 4 6 2
Germany PzKpfw I B 13 13 0 4 6 2
Germany PzKpfw I C 22 26 4 11 13 2
Germany PzKpfw I F 8 9 1 4 4 0
Germany PzKpfw II A/B/C13 14 1 6 7 1
Germany PzKpfw II D 18 17 1 6 8 2
Germany PzKpfw II E/F 18 14 4 6 7 1
Germany PzKpfw II Luchs20 18 2 15 9 6
Germany Pz III E/F/G 13 14 1 5 7 2
Germany PzKpfw III H 13 13 0 5 6 1
Germany Pz III J/L/N 13 13 0 6 6 0
Germany PzKpfw IV B 13 13 0 6 6 0
Germany PzKpfw IV D 13 14 1 6 7 1
Germany PzKpfw IV E 13 13 0 6 6 0
Germany PzKpfw IV F 1 13 14 1 6 7 1
Germany PzKpfw IV F 2/G13 13 0 6 6 0
Germany SdKfz 11 18 18 0 7 9 2
Germany SdKfz 222/221 27 27 0 13 13 0
Germany SdKfz 231 (6) 23 23 0 11 11 0
Germany SdKfz 231 (8) 28 28 0 10 14 4
Germany SdKfz 233 28 28 0 10 14 4
Germany SdKfz 234 28 28 0 10 14 4
Germany SdKfz 251 17 17 0 7 8 1
Germany SdKfz 251/1 17 18 1 8 9 1
Germany SdKfz 8 17 14 3 7 7 0
Germany Sturmpanzer IV 13 12 1 8 6 2
Germany Tiger I 13 13 0 3 6 3
Germany Tiger II 13 13 0 5 6 1
Germany Wirbelwind 13 14 1 6 7 1
G.B. A.10 8 9 1 4 4 0
G.B. A.10 CS 8 8 0 4 4 0
G.B. A.9 13 13 0 8 6 2
G.B. A13 Mk I 16 16 0 12 8 4
G.B. A13 Mk II 16 16 0 7 8 1
G.B. A33 13 13 0 6 6 0
G.B. Archer 8 11 3 4 5 1
G.B. Avenger 17 18 1 10 9 1
G.B. Bishop 8 10 2 3 5 2
G.B. Black Prince 6 7 1 4 3 1
G.B. Cavalier 13 17 4 7 8 1
G.B. Centaur 14 16 2 8 8 0
G.B. Centurion Mk.1 11 11 0 8 5 3
G.B. Challenger A.30 17 18 1 8 9 1
G.B. ChurllIII/IV 8 8 0 4 4 0
G.B. ChurllVII/VIII 7 8 1 4 4 0
G.B. Comet A.34 15 17 2 8 8 0
G.B. Covenator 16 18 2 13 9 4
G.B. Cromwell I 21 22 1 9 11 2
G.B. Cromwell IV 17 18 1 9 9 0
G.B. Cromwell VI 17 20 3 9 10 1
G.B. Cromwell VII 17 18 1 9 9 0
G.B. Cromwell VIII 17 18 1 9 9 0
G.B. Crusader Mk VI 14 15 1 8 7 1
G.B. Grant 14 12 2 8 6 2
G.B. Honey AOP 19 21 2 10 10 0
G.B. Honey Recce 19 24 5 10 12 2
G.B. MK II-MK III 16 16 0 10 8 2
G.B. MK VIB/C 19 19 0 13 9 4
G.B. M10 17 pdr 16 17 1 10 8 2
G.B. M22 Locust 21 20 1 16 10 6
G.B. Matilda Mk I 4 6 2 3 3 0
G.B. Matilda Mk II 8 8 0 4 4 0
G.B. Priest/Kangaroo 14 14 0 8 7 1
G.B. Sexton 13 13 0 10 6 4
G.B. Sherman 13 13 0 8 6 2
G.B. Stuart/Honey 19 20 1 10 10 0
G.B. Tetrarch 21 22 1 15 11 4
G.B. Valentine 8 8 0 4 4 0
G.B. Vickers Medium 9 7 2 5 3 2
G.B. Vickers Valiant 6 11 5 3 5 2
S.U. BT-2/5 37 17 2 16 8 8
S.U. BT-7 25 17 8 16 8 8
S.U. BT-7M 29 17 1 16 8 8
S.U. IS-1 12 12 0 8 6 2
S.U. KV-1 12 10 2 6 5 1
S.U. KV-1 M1941 12 12 0 6 6 0
S.U. KV-1s 13 14 1 8 7 1
S.U. KV-2 9 9 0 5 4 1
S.U. KV-8 12 12 0 6 6 0
S.U. KV-8.s 13 14 1 8 7 1
S.U. KV-85 12 12 0 6 6 0
S.U. T-26 9 10 1 6 5 1
S.U. T-28 12 12 0 6 6 0
S.U. T-34 18 18 0 13 9 4
S.U. T-34-85 17 18 17 1 11 9 2
S.U. T-35 10 10 0 6 5 1
S.U. T-37 12 12 0 8 6 2
S.U. T-38 15 15 0 8 7 1
S.U. T-40 15 15 0 10 7 3
S.U. T-44 17 17 0 13 8 5
S.U. T-50 18 17 1 13 8 5
S.U. T-60 15 15 0 10 7 3
S.U. T-70 17 15 2 10 7 3
USA 105 GMC M7 14 14 0 8 7 1
USA 155 GMC M12 13 14 1 6 7 1
USA 90 GMC M36 16 15 1 9 7 2
USA Combt car M1 24 24 0 9 12 3
USA M10 76mm 16 17 1 10 8 2
USA M18 GMC Hellcat 24 27 3 10 13 3
USA M22 locust 21 20 1 16 10 6
USA M24 Chaffee 19 17 2 13 8 5
USA M26 Pershing 11 15 4 2 7 5
USA M2A2 "Mae-West" 15 21 6 9 10 1
USA M2A4 15 20 5 9 10 1
USA M3 /A1 19 20 1 10 10 0
USA M3 Lee 14 12 2 8 6 2
USA M30 Carrier 13 14 1 6 7 1
USA M39 24 27 3 10 13 3
USA M3A3 19 17 2 10 8 2
USA M3A3/M3A5 14 13 1 8 6 2
USA M4 Duplex Drive 13 12 1 8 6 2
USA M4 Sherman 13 13 0 8 6 2
USA M40 155mm GMC 13 14 1 6 7 1
USA M4A3 105 15 13 2 9 6 3
USA M5/M5A1 19 20 1 12 10 2
USA M8 16 16 0 12 8 4

The book speeds are from these books.
Chamberlain and Ellis, British and American Tanks of World War II.
Chamberlain and Milsom, Allied Combat Tanks.
Chamberlain and Ellis, Axis Combat Tanks.
Cappellano and Battistelli, Italian medium tanks 1939-45.
Cappellano and Battistelli, Italian light tanks 1919-45.
Encycopedia of WW2 weapons

DRG · #25 November 17th, 2016, 08:58 AM

The formula used in the game is the max speed in Km divided by 3-- that is clearly stated in MOBHack help--The British Comet, for example, has a max speed of 51 kmh ( in a number of sources I have access to ) and 51 km/h divided by 3 = 17 and that's what's in the game. ( we round up at .5 and above and that's why your very first entry is an error.....an A.10 speed of 25.7 km/h would convert to be 8.566666666666667 and that is 9 in game terms NOT 8 ) How well it preforms on various terrain is then determined by the individual terrain factors and there may be more than one factor per hex that influences how far a vehicle will move

THAT is how it's handled and it's NOT going to change. Any differences between whatever source used and what happens in the game in regards to CC speed is not game play significant

What I MAY look at is some of the listings where max speed differs significantly from the values we use in the game like the BT-7 so anything more than a 2 or 3 in column J will be looked at ... but we are not going to adjust how terrain effects CC speed

LRDG vehicles WILL keep their AT wheeled status.

Vehicles like light tanks can and will and will continue to be used in AC or other type formations and it's a perfectly legitimate way an OOB designer can set them up for use in formations but the Yugo example does look like you caught an error

Finally....... there will ALWAYS be speed variations from source to source so they are ALL treated as guidelines and no one source is sacrosanct . I am not going to make changes to the OOB's for minor differences in source stated speed but anything that is off by more than a hex or 2 will be looked at as time allows. I am not going to treat your list as error free given your first entry make incorrect assumptions as to how numbers are averaged so it will be treated........ IF I get time.....as just another guideline

Don

Kiwikkiwik · #26 November 22nd, 2016, 04:53 AM

Thank you for your reply DRG
I see from other posts you are very busy trying to keep us all happy, thank you for that also.
OK you are right A10 is wrong. In the spreadsheet in column H I have changed rounddown in the formula to round and left rounddown as rounddown in other columns.
I also checked my spreadsheet again and found an error and corrected it.
I also added a column (Q) that shows the vehicles that have a cross county speed higher than in the book and by how much.
I also sorted the spreadsheet to show the tanks wich deviate most from your values at the top.
I understand these book cross country values are not sacrosant but they are probably correct? I have no reason to beleive they are wrong or made up.
I can see the reasoning that because of terrain variability cross country speeds will be about right.
But if you compare two vehicles I think the problem becomes clear.
Compare the Tiger 1 and Sherman, both with nearly the same max speed (38 and 38.6 kph) this gives them both a crosscountry speed of 6 hexs.
But using the book crosscountry speeds of 3 and 8 there is a difference of 5 hexes in their speed per turn.
So if they move over the same terrain, for example clear the sherman will always move two hexs too few and the tiger will always move three hexes too far, every move.
If you change the terrain type the tiger will nearly always move too far the Sherman not far enough. It doesnt equal out over a game.
The early Marders are 4 hexes too fast crosscountry, Jentz says because the chassis was overloaded.
The french AMC's are 4 hexes to slow because their crosscountry speed is nearly the same as their road speed.

Looking at Mobhack I see each vehicle has a speed (Max) and a swim speed. Maybe crosscountry speed can be put into swim speed? then calculate swim speed or just have a generic swim speed?

I redid my sample list with just the most exceptional for these Sample OObs (and better justified).

Battle is fire and movement.
I am sorry to bother you with this but I think making slow vehicles slow and fast vehicles fast would be a great addition.

Nation_Vehicle__Book_Game_____Book_Game
________________Road_Road_____RoughRough
________________SpeedSpeedDiffSpeedSpeedDiff
________________Hex__Hex__Hex_Hex__Hex__Hex
Fra_AMC_34_YR___13___13___0___10____6___4
Fra_AMC_35______13___13___0___10____6___4
Fra_Char_B______11____9___2____5____4___1
Fra_FCM_2C/bis___4____6___2____2____3___1
Fra_FT-17________3____6___3____2____3___1
Fra_H-35_________9___11___2____4____5___1
Fra_R-35_________6____8___2____4____4___0
Fra_Somua_S-35__16___14___2____7____7___0
Ger_Jagdpanther_15___15___0____5____7___2
Ger_Jagdtiger___11___12___1____4____6___2
Ger_Kfz_70_Pr___23___20___3___11___10___1
Ger_Las_762_____18___13___5____6____6___0
Ger_Marder_I_37_12___12___0____2____6___4
Ger_Marder_I_39_12___12___0____2____6___4
Ger_MarderIII_H_16___13___3____6____6___0
Ger_MarderIII_M_16___14___2____6____7___1
Ger_Panther_____15___17___2___10____8___2
Ger_PanzerjagI__10___14___4____3____7___4
Ger_PzKpfw_38t__14___14___0____5____7___2
Ger_PzKpfw_I_A__12___13___1____4____6___2
Ger_PzKpfw_I_B__13___13___0____4____6___2
Ger_PzKpfw_I_C__22___26___4___11___13___2
Ger_PzKpfw_II_D-18___17___1____6____8___2
Ger_PzKpfw_II_E_18___14___4____6____7___1
Ger_PzKpfwLuchs_20___18___2___15____9___6
Ger_Pz_III_E/F__13___14___1____5____7___2
Ger_SdKfz_11____18___18___0____7____9___2
Ger_SdKfz231(8)_28___28___0___10___14___4
Ger_SdKfz_233___28___28___0___10___14___4
Ger_SdKfz_234___28___28___0___10___14___4
Ger_SdKfz_8_____17___14___3____7____7___0
Ger_Sturmpz_IV__13___12___1____8____6___2
Ger_Tiger_I_____13___13___0____3____6___3
GB__A_9_________13___13___0____8____6___2
GB__A13_Mk_I____16___16___0___12____8___4
GB__Archer_______8___11___3____4____5___1
GB__Bishop_______8___10___2____3____5___2
GB__Cavalier____13___17___4____7____8___1
GB__Centaur_____14___16___2____8____8___0
GB__Centurionk__11___11___0____8____5___3
GB__Comet_A_34__15___17___2____8____8___0
GB__Covenator___16___18___2___13____9___4
GB__Cromwell_I__21___22___1____9___11___2
GB__Cromwell_VI_17___20___3____9___10___1
GB__Grant_______14___12___2____8____6___2
GB__Honey_AOP___19___21___2___10___10___0
GB__Honey_Recce_19___24___5___10___12___2
GB__MK_II-MK_III16___16___0___10____8___2
GB__MK_VIB/C____19___19___0___13____9___4
GB__M10_17_pdr__16___17___1___10____8___2
GB__M22_Locust__21___20___1___16___10___6
GB__Matilda_Mk_I_4____6___2____3____3___0
GB__Sexton______13___13___0___10____6___4
GB__Sherman_____13___13___0____8____6___2
GB__Tetrarch____21___22___1___15___11___4
GB__Vickers_Med__9____7___2____5____3___2
GB__Vickers_Vali_6___11___5____3____5___2
SU__BT-2/5______37___17___2___16____8___8
SU__BT-7________25___17___8___16____8___8
SU__BT-7M_______29___17___1___16____8___8
SU__IS-1________12___12___0____8____6___2
SU__KV-1________12___10___2____6____5___1
SU__T-34________18___18___0___13____9___4
SU__T-34-85_17__18___17___1___11____9___2
SU__T-37________12___12___0____8____6___2
SU__T-40________15___15___0___10____7___3
SU__T-44________17___17___0___13____8___5
SU__T-50________18___17___1___13____8___5
SU__T-60________15___15___0___10____7___3
SU__T-70________17___15___2___10____7___3
USA_90_GMCM36___16___15___1____9____7___2
USA_Combtcar_M1_24___24___0____9___12___3
USA_M10_76mm____16___17___1___10____8___2
USA_M18_Hellcat_24___27___3___10___13___3
USA_M22_locust__21___20___1___16___10___6
USA_M24_Chaffee_19___17___2___13____8___5
USA_M26Pershing_11___15___4____2____7___5
USA_M2A2Mae-West15___21___6____9___10___1
USA_M2A4________15___20___5____9___10___1
USA_M3_Lee______14___12___2____8____6___2
USA_M39_________24___27___3___10___13___3
USA_M3A3________19___17___2___10____8___2
USA_M3A3/M3A5___14___13___1____8____6___2
USA_M4_Duplex___13___12___1____8____6___2
USA_M4_Sherman__13___13___0____8____6___2
USA_M4A3_105____15___13___2____9____6___3
USA_M5/M5A1_____19___20___1___12___10___2
USA_M8__________16___16___0___12____8___4

The.book.speeds.are.from.these.books.
Chamberlain.and.Ellis,.British.and.American.Tanks. of.World.War.II.
Chamberlain.and.Milsom,.Allied.Combat.Tanks.
Chamberlain.and.Ellis,.Axis.Combat.Tanks.
Cappellano.and.Battistelli,.Italian.medium.tanks.1 939-45.
Cappellano.and.Battistelli,.Italian.light.tanks.19 19-45.
Encycopedia.of.WW2.weapons

DRG · #27 November 22nd, 2016, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiwikkiwik

Looking at Mobhack I see each vehicle has a speed (Max) and a swim speed. Maybe crosscountry speed can be put into swim speed? then calculate swim speed or just have a generic swim speed?

That is not going to happen. Game Cross country speed calculation are applied the same way to every vehicle and we are NOT going to introduce individual variables. That was never more than a general approximation that works in the majority of cases BUT....there will ALWAYS be vehicles that don't fit......live with it ( we do )

I will however, look at the list at some point and investigate some of the base speeds we have used for things like the BT's which appear to have been artificially slowed

Don

Kiwikkiwik · #28 November 23rd, 2016, 04:16 AM

Ok thanks for considering my post

DRG · #29 November 23rd, 2016, 09:20 AM

I'm not sure how everybody , including us, seems to have missed the BT series speeds being low for so long....( AND the Ft-17's were too fast -EDIT but I seem to recall those were deliberately made 6 to match infantry speed otherwise they fall behind) AND some of the ammo counts are off, which I wouldn't have discovered if I hadn't been looking at the speed so there will be some changes made because of your work just not what you set out to do

Pibwl · #30 November 23rd, 2016, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRG

I'm not sure how everybody , including us, seems to have missed the BT series speeds being low for so long....

Maybe it's because they are almost perfectly correct (apart from BT-7M)

According to Russian books by Baryatynski/Kolomiets (Bronyekollektsya series), both BT-2/BT-5 developed 52 km/h on tracks (ie 17) and 72 km/h on wheels, BT-7: 53 (ie 17.6) and 73 km/h and BT-7M: 62 (ie 20.6) and 86 km/h respectively.
Obviously, these tanks could go on wheels on roads only.

Mihail Svirin gives the same figures for BT-2/BT-5, and off road speed 32 / 33. For BT-7 he gives 51.6 km/h (ie 17), for BT-7M also 62.

High figures, exceeding 100 km/h, probably come only from one of Christie's prototypes.

BTW: speaking of BT, there was no such thing as BT-2a (unit 115) and BT-5a (unit 95) - only BT-7A with short 76mm gun (there were only two experimental BT-2 tested with 76mm guns in different turrets).
Formations 005 and 124 must be modified accordingly... It seems however, that there should be no BT-7A in each company, because eg. 23rd Brigade, during attack on Poland, had 206 BT-7 and 3 BT-7A... And in 1940 there were only 104 BT-7A in a whole army (for over 5000 BT-7).

Unit 003 BT-7a should have capital letter, carried only 50 rounds of ammo, and was armed with #034 76mm L16 KT-28, not L-10 L/26