Defeating the Talisman

[Undertakr]

Problem is, in a game with 12 players, someone can't remove all their stuff from their ships to just take on a Talismaned fleet. They have to have all the extras to go fight the other races as well. (Or do some retrofitting I suppose.)

Bottom line is, if you don't get your fleet to 20% experience, you don't hit enough to worry a Talismaned fleet at all. 2 of us with Religion have destroyed 9 of the people in our game with a total of 4 fleets. About 90 ships. We have destroyed well over 300 ships and lost about 30 of our own, so the Talisman is quite effective, at least it was in the game we're about to finish up.

The only thing that did quite a bit of damage is the Tacyon Cannon for the Temporals, that hurt me pretty well and the Time Distortion Bursts rocked me too.

- takr

[geoschmo]

So Undertakr, what exactly is the point of all this? You have pointed out nothing new to anyone. The tailsman is tough, but it's not unbeatable. It's only as good as the player using it. A skilled player will do well using just about any combination, and an unskilled player is going to lose even if they use the Tailsman.

It is impossible for anyone to come up with one strategy that will beat the tailsman player under every circumstances. But the same could be said about any other possible empire setup. I could come out here and say, "Organic race is the ultimate racial trait" and give my resaons why. You and everyone else could give me suggestions for beating someone using organic race, and I could then give you my plans for dealing with your stragegies. All of it is purely theoretical and doesn't prove anything. Any more than the fact that you and your fellow religious player were able to beat 9 other players.

I had a PBW game a while back where I was non-racial tech player. I had just various characteristic bonuses. I allied with another player that was organic I think and we cleared the game of everyone else, including religious players. What does that prove? Just that we did a better job in that particular game. Nothing more, nothing less.

Geoschmo

[tesco samoa]

Well I think that it will be a more interesting game trying to beat the talisman than playing with one every game...

And in one game I am getting hammered...... by a nasty combo of talisman and propulsion expert...

That is a nasty combo... Ships are too quick... and the player is a good player... But I am learning and a lesson out of a beating is far better to experience than walking away.

Right Geo

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by tesco samoa:
Right Geo

Yep yep!

We may not get trhough this one for sure, btu I have defintly learned a lot about how to deal with them in the future.

[Pax]

Originally posted by Undertakr:
Problem is, in a game with 12 players, someone can't remove all their stuff from their ships to just take on a Talismaned fleet. They have to have all the extras to go fight the other races as well. (Or do some retrofitting I suppose.)

Sure they can -- they just have to convince "everyone else" to play along, while the Talisman-wielders get smished. Sort of a "kill you Last" agreement.

Bottom line is, if you don't get your fleet to 20% experience, you don't hit enough to worry a Talismaned fleet at all. 2 of us with Religion have destroyed 9 of the people in our game with a total of 4 fleets. About 90 ships. We have destroyed well over 300 ships and lost about 30 of our own, so the Talisman is quite effective, at least it was in the game we're about to finish up.

The only thing that did quite a bit of damage is the Tacyon Cannon for the Temporals, that hurt me pretty well and the Time Distortion Bursts rocked me too.

- takr

Depends. A few lucky whacks with ship capture ... and you're in trouble, 'cause some of HIS ships are talisman ships now ...

Also sucks to run into a Religious/Psychic combination; if they can get going ... YOUR shipbuilding efforts merely build HIS fleet. Heh.

Well this is very disappointing. Can't you stop learning your lessons, and just carry on doing the things you were doing before? It'd be much easier for me.

[geoschmo]

I am sure it was. But I am through learning leassons and am in the mood to teach a few now.

[tesco samoa]

Too funny...

In other games that I have joined which are full tech... I have designed a race I think that will hurt the Religious player... Now to test it out.

Mark I did not know you were a member here. Good to see you. Sorry about the insult of you being a good player

But hey you are beating Andres, Geo and myself very easy.....

[Fyron]

That's cause you guys suck. j/k

[Wardad]

Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
Undertakr, the Talisman is effective but it isn't everything. Particularlly since you are giving your opponent 110kt over you, if he's smart. 50kt Talisman + 30 Stealth + 30 Scattering + 10 ECM -10 sensors.

See, he can't dodge you anyway.. so he doesn't NEED those extra things. Just sensors. You on the other hand do need them, to dodge his shots.

PDCs are hyper-accurate even without the talisman. so that part is irrelevent..

Or your opponent can just take a page from military history and hit you when HE is ready, not when you are. It's an advantage, not a holy grail (pun not intended)

Phoenix-D

That 110Kt difference is true for ships. But... Have you looked at what the Talisman can do for a stack of units?

100 SATS in a stack is a lot of Kt, for Large SATS thats 12,000 Kt of space, for Medium SATS thats 10,000 Kt of space, and I'll ignore the Small SATS as they can't use the large weapon mount.

With 12,000 Kt of space I can easily add a 50Kt Tailisman and bonus the whole stack. I can even add few more for backup. I have more than enough room for ECM and ECM armor. In fact the toughest SATS should be destroyed Last, so my Talisman SAT could have best shields and armor points.

Oh yea, that large SAT mount adds x4 range and x2 power. That extra range is cool for using cheap ripper beams, only X weapons, and the pyshic subVersion weapon.

BUT THATS NOT ALL!!!
Don't you hate missing with the Weapon Platform large mounts. These mounts have incredible range and can deal some real pain. Just one Talisman can help a whole stack of platforms. You can put it in a small platform and save the space on the big ones for big guns.

The funny numbers...
The best combat sensor can add only +60 to hit and there is no training or racial bonus effect on units. The larger weapon platform mounts do get a bonus to Hit, but not enough.
The ship the unit is targeting may have +130 ECM (+60 ECM, +30 ECM armor, +20 ship training, +20 fleet training)and +30 racial defense (+10 bezerker, +20 attack) + DISTANCE Modifier. A mid game ships total ECM + Distance could easily be figured at +90 to +200.
Since units are generally more fragile than ships the results are damning. The ships can also have +130 to hit bonuses, (+60 combat sensor, +40 training, and +30 racial)which is better than any units ECM.
A SAT unit stack can have +90 ECM. ECM is generally wasted on weapon platforms because of a planets high hit-me bonus. I don't remember exactly what the best fighter ECM + Size Bonus is, but it is not enough.

With a Talisman in the SAT or Weapon platform a ships ECM and distance is meaningless. These units can still be usefull in the later game.

[ September 05, 2002, 00:16: Message edited by: Wardad ]