Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92

[Shangrila00]

Wait...as far as I can see, I've been calmly debating. Pointing out how overwrought "Ashdod can never be balanced if they have Adons...because Ashdod kicked my butt!!!!" isn't itself overwrought except in magical projection land.

Your arguments are easy to see as a crusade of vengence because they are rather silly. Teleportation (at construction 6) being overpowered, when every Fomorian King can teleport at Enchantment 4, and without dying to magic duel. Completely and repeatedly ignoring that nonfatigue neutral Adons lose to their cost in completely normal heavy infantry, and yet still claiming that the encumbrance change does nothing to rein them in. You can't simultaneously argue that Adonim are super because they don't need equipment, and also that you can fully equip an SC year 1, and that's why Adonim are super.

I mean, really, arguing on the one side that the Adon research malus means nothing since they should be out fighting, and simultaneously claiming that an Ashdod doing that will have Conjuration 3 and Construction 2 year 1? Where in the world is all that research coming from? The awake research pretender Ashdod took that also has E10N4+ and decent economic scales right? No doubt using that -100 point Ashdod only E3N1 chasis called "I win."

Please, share the build you know Ashdod can use to do what you claim it can. Or if you don't want to because you can't, admit it. Trying to abandon an argument by claiming nonexistent flaming though...that's bad form.

[Executor]

LOL. You're funny. I wonder what you're like when you get all fussy.
Well, for the record I've never lost to Ashdod. But I get that you like to pull things out of context.

And I don't see why you have to recruit an Adon every turn? Oh, yes, 300 research in 12 turns is absolutely unimaginable. While, you'd have to recruit a mage every turn almost!

Heck no, I'll not abandon this now, it's fun. Do I do think you need some manners.

[ghoul31]

Originally Posted by Executor

LOL. You're funny. I wonder what you're like when you get all fussy.
Well, for the record I've never lost to Ashdod. But I get that you like to pull things out of context.

And I don't see why you have to recruit an Adon every turn? Oh, yes, 300 research in 12 turns is absolutely unimaginable. While, you'd have to recruit a mage every turn almost!

Heck no, I'll not abandon this now, it's fun. Do I do think you need some manners.

why don't you actually play Ashdod in the new cbm. Then you can talk. Because the stuff you are talking about now can't be done.

[Executor]

It most certainly can when you play your cards right.
And I have no intension of proving any point by playing them in game. What I say comes from experience, like the **** storm with Agartha.
Besides, I dislike Ashdod, there are many other nations I'd sooner play then them.

Though I wouldn't drop the opportunity to do just that if I got them in a random game.

[Shangrila00]

Hey, perhaps you should calm down a bit.

For whatever reason, you seem to be taking this personally, and I have no interest in...okay let's get serious.

So present your build that allows Ashdod to do what you claim. It doesn't take a great deal of math to demonstrate Ashdod can have at most 321 rp by the end of year 1. That's by recruiting one 200 gold or 310 gold sacred mage per turn, with no site searching, and no Adons. What kind of troops are you recruiting for expansion, and when is your second fort going up? Do so, and I will concede that point, though it would be nice if you responded to the others as well.

[Valerius]

Originally Posted by Shangrila00

It certainly doesn't make a damn bit of sense to nerf their spellcasting instead of their thuggability as CBM did.

My point is that if you do buff their spell casting without any other penalty that is a bonus to the unit/nation. So then the question becomes whether Ashdod as a whole is a weak nation that needs a buff. If the nation doesn't need a buff and you'd prefer to see a change in emphasis from zamzummites as thugs to them being spellcasters (with a corresponding nerf to their thuggability), well that's llama's call and I don't have an opinion either way.

Originally Posted by Shangrila00

In any case, I'm not really convinced their thuggability is even that big of an issue. Unless you are playing in some crazy rich setting or some ridiculously big map, the bottleneck will always be equipment, not thug chasis.

But that logic applies to any thug chassis. I play a lot with Sidhe Lords, one of the best (maybe the best) thugs out-of-the-box. But even they need some gear if you want them to handle more than a few points of PD. So gems are always an issue.

And even out-of-the-box zamzummites have some nice crowd control capabilities - fire shield, invulnerability, soul vortex, BE and luck all being in their repertoire or easily castable on them by other national mages.

As far as spell casting goes, 1 in 4 can skelly spam with reasonable fatigue, another 1 in 4 can participate in communions and cast nether darts, the 1 in 4 E randoms act as army buffers, and the one in four F randoms can cast flaming arrows with a booster. Also worth noting is that they can all cast disintegrate which, quite usefully, is something the AI will actually cast off-script. So basically half of them are suited for evo. work and the other half are more suited for thug work. I don't think that's a bad mix.

Now if you implement kianduatha's suggestion of a 25% chance of an extra DE pick I don't think that would be unbalancing but personally I wouldn't go past that percentage.

It's been a while but IIRC zamzummites were a considerable part of the complaints about Ashdod. You've got some leeway with cap only units because they don't scale but I think with non-cap units extra caution is warranted. And again, Ashdod is hardly in dire straits.

[Executor]

Well don't reedit so I can't see.

Okay,
Didn't say teleportation is OP, just that they too have that option. And I'd rather have an astral teleporter than air, magic duel or not.

"Completely and repeatedly ignoring that nonfatigue neutral Adons lose to their cost in completely normal heavy infantry and yet still claiming that the encumbrance change does nothing to rein them in."

It doesn't as you don't need zero reinvigoration against indies. That is if you even chose to use only Adons for expansion which I don't see why you would. You don't lose much even if you don't recruit a single Adon until turn 15. Wait and build an extra fort and a research force by that time. Expand with national and indies and mercs and than start poping out Adons.
Against a human opponent you wouldn't risk an Adon like that.

"You can't simultaneously argue that Adonim are super because they don't need equipment, and also that you can fully equip an SC year 1, and that's why Adonim are super."

Why can't I? They are great if you chose to expand with them at which point they don't need equipment. Sure you'll need to stay clear of some provinces but that's always been the case and you'll need some extra help on others. And than you get to the point where you face a human opponent at which point you throw in items to make those Adons really nasty.

You don't need to take the end of year 1 literally though even that can be done. Turn 15? Certainly.
As for a build, take a standard Cyclops, E10N4, dominion 6. Order 3, production 0-2. Misfortune 2. Magic 1 or 3. Death 1. Heat 3.
Build a sage every turn and you can have 2 Adons and const 2 and conjuration 3 by year 2.
For expansion use regular Ashdod troops. Use indie commanders to led them. Use mercs. Dominions is a game of chance and luck, you can't take every word or guide literally. **** you can get stamped by knight on turn 2 and game over, or you can get 3000 gold and a robe of the mage and go crazy.

[Shangrila00]

Originally Posted by Valerius

But that logic applies to any thug chassis. I play a lot with Sidhe Lords, one of the best (maybe the best) thugs out-of-the-box. But even they need some gear if you want them to handle more than a few points of PD. So gems are always an issue.

Well, as you say, Sidhe Lords are about the best. They just need brand and shield with a high bless. Zamzummites need that, plus armor and helmet and a ton more research. And opportunity costs of course, it's hardly unlikely for the number of Adons to outstrip equipment availability. There's a legitimate choice between deploying Sidhe Lords as thugs or your cap only's if you don't have the resources to field both, not so much with Ashdod.

CBM has already changed the emphasis of zamzummites from spellcasters to thugs, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Like I said, I think the second random should become just death. Disintegrate is not really an argument, no more than storm of thorns. Death battlemagic needs D3s and 1/4 is too few for serious death battlemagic.

Originally Posted by Executor

Well don't reedit so I can't see.

I editted 13 minutes before your response. Did you really spend 13 minutes writing that?

Didn't say teleportation is OP, just that they too have that option. And I'd rather have an astral teleporter than air, magic duel or not.

Do you have any actual justification for this? A 500 gold cap only with only S2 is about the ideal target for magic duel, and the MA is the strongest age for astral.

It doesn't as you don't need zero reinvigoration against indies.

You have repeated claimed the increase in encumbrance does nothing to Adons. Are you saying that too, like your claim about year 1 geared Adons was not intended to be taken as an actual claim?

Against a human opponent you wouldn't risk an Adon like that.

If Adonim can't be risked against humans before the human can field counters, why exactly are they OP?

Why can't I? They are great if you chose to expand with them at which point they don't need equipment. Sure you'll need to stay clear of some provinces but that's always been the case and you'll need some extra help on others. And than you get to the point where you face a human opponent at which point you throw in items to make those Adons really nasty.

Everybody has to be careful against heavy cav and elephants. Adonim have to be careful against something like half the indy provinces you are likely to see in an initial expansion. And if you are recruiting Adonim for expansion, they aren't going to be notably nasty until well into year 2 thanks to your awful research. If you aren't, you are leaning on expensive regulars, expensive mercenaries, and expensive researchers while your scales are not exactly great (combining misfortune and death, how fun) thanks to a high bless that you aren't even using. Unless of course, you just decide not to take a high bless for a unit that you won't even field until year 2. How exactly are they OP again?

Moreover, you seem to be forgetting your initial claim, that Ashdod can field fully geared and buffed SCs year 1, and nobody else can, and that's why Adon are OP. You've now admitted that's not actually true, that Ashdod can gear up SCs no earlier than anybody else. At which point, how exactly is an Adon superior to the geared, mistformed/mirror imaged Fom King, or fireshield/earth buffed Dai Oni that would also be fielded at the same time?

It's pretty clear that you tried to argue that Adonim are OP by combining all the things they can do in all possible strategies and pretending it's all possible in the same game, which is manifestly false.

[Valerius]

Originally Posted by Shangrila00

Death battlemagic needs D3s and 1/4 is too few for serious death battlemagic.

Well, I think you have to do a peer comparison and in the MA the leading death nations (Ermor, C'tis, Shin) all max out at D3 (outside of the 1 in 40 chance of D4 with their 10% randoms). Now you have to take the total package into account when judging a nation: Ermor has its free spawn, C'tis has its miasma, Shin has its excellent battle magic and Ashdod has its SCs/thugs. If Ashdod didn't have something "extra" like the other nations I could maybe see boosting their magic but given the context I don't really see a case for Ashdod to have higher levels of D magic.

Really, the more I think about it, the more I think changing zamzummite's magic paths is a bad idea (the armor change seems fine, though). I think Ashdod is a solid nation that there isn't a need to ban or dogpile and that's a good change both for people playing other nations and for people who want to play Ashdod.

[Shangrila00]

Ermor is a communion nation, and Shinuyama's a nation with battlemagic and death magic, not a nation whose battlemagic is death magic. MA C'tis, I admit is a nation I've never figured out how to play. Thematically speaking, MA is when C'tis turned away from necromancy and when Hinnom/Ashdod/Gath turned to necromancy, so it makes sense that Ashdod's would be better.

In any case, every age must logically have a single strongest nation. For MA, I'm pretty sure that's Pythium, before and after Ashdod got nerfed. Even if Ashdod was the strongest nation in the MA, that's not reason in and of itself to nerf it (remember we are talking a unit that was nerfed and whether that's justified, not whether a unit should be buffed). Only tactics that cannot reasonably be countered at an equal skill level would be that (and I agree turn 2 0 fatigue Adons are that), and common D3s are definitely not overpowering. If simply being second strongest is reason for nerfing to middle of the pack, that would just result in endless shuffling to no purpose.