Like most of the advanced weapons the Germans were working on late in the war it was a case of too little and too late and with not enough fuel to use it much in any case.
One of the interesting things about a Mod like this is in a Germany without Hitler and the Nazis, Germany can make sane strategic and operational choices (tactics the Germans always did well). Also Germany need not lose a lot of very good brains due to their religion/race and some scientific/technical projects might go a bit faster for them than they did in reality.
For example the ME 262 jet fully operational, as a fighter, in late 1943-early 1944 (and that might have created problems for even the Western Allies in the real WWII, given that out of all the Allies only the Brits had an operational Jet, the Gloster Meteor in WWII).
As an Aside I am always struck that Gloster Aircraft produced the RAF's last biplane fighter, the Gladiator that saw action in WWII and the RAF's first jet Fighter the Meteor by 1944...
Guys, the "Bah" was more of a general "hey wait, maybe we're getting sidetracked a little too much and talking a bit too much about alternate counterfactuals, plausibilities, instead of RecruitMonty's mod?"
I hope that RecruitMonty will be happy to see his interesting mod generating discussion and interest on here. I very strongly suspect the more interest and discussion the more people might take a look at and use the mod...
Question for Tank experts (me I was an Infantry soldier):
There is a sort of link from WWII British Tanks, that spent much of the war out gunned and out Armoured by German Tanks, to the Centurion -just too late for WWII- Chieftain and even, to some degree, Challenger tanks of the British Army.
What I mean is that a tank is a trade off between fire power, armour and mobility and British post war tanks, at least until Challenger, always went for fire power and armour at the expense of mobility. To me that makes sense as a result of British WWII experience, especially US Shermans and Cromwells v Tigers and Panthers in 1944-45. (Incidentally the British gave the US a fair number of Sherman Fireflys with the excellent British 17 pd gun, in a sort or reverse lend lease, but the US Army never used them largely due, it seems, to a US bias against non US kit).
So my question is if there is any such link between the German Panther of WWII and the post war Leopard and Leopard II? Or was the gap in German tank production too long?
Last edited by IronDuke99; March 31st, 2016 at 01:18 AM..
Tank (and aircraft) production is never as easy as it seems on paper.
Sure you can whip up a set of blueprints in a few days/weeks and a prototype in a few months. But then the fun begins. Manufacture. It takes time to build a factory, and will the output from that factory be sufficient, do you have access to the material and manpower needed. Post war development runs into the problem of can you get the money.
The WW II Panther was a great tank on the battlefield but suffered from severe mechanical problems due to design flaws. Read up on the road march to Kursk, three of them self destructed due to internal fires and nearly half broke down. The Sherman was mechanically very reliable and easily a match for the Pz III and IV that make up the vast majority of the German forces. A typical case of is it better to have one great tank or ten mediocre ones.
As to a link between the Panther and the post war Leopard ... everyone learned from the design of the T-34, which the Panther was based on, so indirectly the Leopard was a direct result of the Panther, but not in the way most people would think. Tank (and aircraft) design, like any other sort, learns and benefits from whats been done previously.
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For example the ME 262 jet fully operational, as a fighter, in late 1943-early 1944 (and that might have created problems for even the Western Allies in the real WWII, given that out of all the Allies only the Brits had an operational Jet, the Gloster Meteor in WWII).
As an Aside I am always struck that Gloster Aircraft produced the RAF's last biplane fighter, the Gladiator that saw action in WWII and the RAF's first jet Fighter the Meteor by 1944...
Yes it would have but it doesn't change the fact that the Atomic bomb was ready August 1945 and defeating Nazi Germany always the Allied Priority. Hamburg is as viable a target as Hiroshima and a lot easier to get to. There is no question it would have been used there first if the war had dragged on. Germany was lucky it ended there in May
Yes it would have but it doesn't change the fact that the Atomic bomb was ready August 1945 and defeating Nazi Germany always the Allied Priority. Hamburg is as viable a target as Hiroshima and a lot easier to get to. There is no question it would have been used there first if the war had dragged on. Germany was lucky it ended there in May
Couldn't it be argued that the allies wouldn't have had the Bomb at all without the research, materials and knowledge of the German scientists they "coerced" into helping after V-E day?
Don't think so. If they had been in a postion to use it becasue the war was dragging on and there were no allied troops inside Germany borders I don't belive there is any doubt it would have been used there first.
Ten were built and used during the war to shuttle parts from plant to plant inside Germany in an operational transport role.
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Any discussion on post-war Nazi Germany's military has got to incorporate the fact that more so than other nations, there were independent satrapies within the state hierarchy operating as they mostly saw fit; e.g. the SS state within a state.
While every nation has a bit of this with favored contractors (Boeing for heavy jet bombers for the USAF), the Germans went a bit overboard with it.
With tanks alone, you've got:
Henschel
Krupp
Porsche
Daimler Benz
MAN
And parts might be mixed and matched from various manufacturers to get what they wanted -- e.g. Krupp turret and Henschel hull (Tiger I), while manufacturers might order production expecting the order (Porsche Tiger), only to be left having to find a use for them (remanufactured into Ferdinand/Elefants).
Peacetime development would alleviate a lot of this craziness by reducing the pressure on design teams; but it'd still be there.
Re: WinSP MBT: Das Reich
Linear Mode
