OT: US President (US Dom Players only)

[Humakty]

Guantanamo has this particular trait that it is officially admitted as existing by the government. That is unpreceded in american history. But I find it naive to think that, before it, american did not torture prisonners.

So lets say that, by closing Guantanamo, USA will restore their apparent honour.

[Tichy]

Cell-phone cameras have really done a number on plausible deniability.

[Humakty]

Arf,Arf ! What technology have done for you today ?

[Humakty]

I think it is illusory to believe USA will rebuilt it's image of a pure country respecting morality. I even wonder who ever believed it in the first place : people come to live in the States for economical reasons, it dominated the world thanks to its economy. Not thanks to its supposed morality : minorities of white fanatics say oppenly on TV they burn black people when they can, and you call this morality ? Freedom to the point of absurdity is more like it. Normally, your freedom is supposed to stop were other people freedom starts... Not were you want it to stop, or not to stop.

[Agema]

Few would pretend the USA is whiter-than-white and hasn't done morally dubious things in its self-interest, nor that it doesn't have bad people in it. But by and large the USA as a nation has tried to stand up for or represented values the West finds attractive: lawfulness, democracy, human rights and many more. Particularly in comparison to other major powers like China or the old USSR, whose regimes have been repellent.

And yes, many people want to go to the USA for money. But I think you're underestimating how many people admire the USA for its respect for laws, individual rights and egalitarian society, even those in nations that view the USA as an enemy. Furthermore, people who believe in Enlightenment values want a nation that was founded on them and still espouses them to act on them.

[JimMorrison]

Originally Posted by chrispedersen

...Hearing someone say they are going to close down gitmo - with a lack of other details - does not inspire me to believe that the problems (for there are several) will be considered, let alone fixed. It rather much appears as if you are pandering to public opinion rather than actually considering the issues. As I said in the ealier post, its a decision that should take the best minds. The AG, SoS, JCS, SoD - etc.

This is so similar to the whole "we need to negotiate with Iran" problem. Politicians in general, but Republicans especially, seem to have taken a liking to protraying an -extreme- level of cautiousness. We are so critical of our Presidents, that now they either try to hide what they do, or in cases that they can't hide it, they are openly as slow and deliberate as possible, so that at least when they fail, they can say they "took proper measures" or at least "really thought about it a lot", and at least try to show that they didn't fail in some way due to impulsiveness.

However, this is now being turned into an illusory critical flaw in someone who is willing to stand up and announce that he will take action. So far, when confronted, Obama has stated that while he has made his goals clear, that it in no way implies that he is planning to behave irresponsibly. Until something outrageous happens (doubt it, but it could) along these lines, then I would suggest that every time Obama says that he will do something about something, that you read it as "I will figure out, with my advisers, how to deal with this issue, and then act". It is somehow vaguely ridiculous to think that someone as obviously intelligent as he is, could rise to such a high office, and then run around like an idiot, doing things with no thought of the repercussions. Besides, no one will be able to pull that off as well as GW did, and I think Obama knows that.

Originally Posted by chrispedersen

You announce that you want to convene at camp david to brain storm what to do about Gitmo - I'd applaud.

Announce that you want to draft legislation on what to do about non-signatory resistance movements - I'd applaud.

Just announce that you are going to close gitmo.. without announcing how you are going to solve these other issues - and I am way less than impressed.

See, this is silly. Someone saying they want to "talk about what to do", is not only acting like total wimp, but they are directly implying that if it's somehow deemed appropriate, that they'll let things continue rather than stopping them. All he has basically said is that one way or another, those things WILL stop. Obviously it is yet to be determined the most appropriate and effective means to do so, but stating that a certain result is the goal, in no way implies a lack of process.

Originally Posted by Agema

Few would pretend the USA is whiter-than-white and hasn't done morally dubious things in its self-interest, nor that it doesn't have bad people in it. But by and large the USA as a nation has tried to stand up for or represented values the West finds attractive: lawfulness, democracy, human rights and many more. Particularly in comparison to other major powers like China or the old USSR, whose regimes have been repellent.

And yes, many people want to go to the USA for money. But I think you're underestimating how many people admire the USA for its respect for laws, individual rights and egalitarian society, even those in nations that view the USA as an enemy. Furthermore, people who believe in Enlightenment values want a nation that was founded on them and still espouses them to act on them.

We were supposed to be the good guys. Maybe not saintly, as a nation, but "good". So if humanity were graded on a curve, we took pride in, and the rest of the world seemed to praise us for, being on the "right" side of that curve somewhere.

Perhaps we are where we are because of our economy, but it cannot be discounted that our diplomatic position has long been seen as very strong, and that our economy has only been bolstered by our ability to negotiate favorable agreements around the world. Thus it is incredibly ironic, and a bit telling, that during 8 years of diplomatic strength our economy did better than most Republicans want to give anyone credit for, and then during 8 years of diplomatic disappointment, our economy slides into a terrible slump (a trillion dollars for a ridiculous war might have something to do with it, too.....). Of course, we can always blame Clinton, he got a couple blowjobs in office and didn't want to tell anyone, so he must have seriously sabotaged our economy beyond what any man as brilliant as GW Bush could have possibly fixed.....

[Humakty]

It seems to me the main value in USA is money, if you have none then the society will seem less egalist( you cannot afford a lawyer = less rights). There is also a surprising percentage of black people in prison, but I'm sure you have the right explanation ? Do you think they are more inclined to criminal acts ? Or are they refused a correct education/equal rights ? But maybe USA judges tend to condemn them more ?

The democracy can also be contested, as people doesn't directly vote for their president, but for people who promise they'll do the right choice, so if it is a democracy, it is highly indirect.

What history has learned to me is that you can be sure anyone reaching a position of domination will pretend being better in various domains, like morality and human rights in the present case.

Must I also say this country, where white people are a minority, has a surprising number of white people at interesting positions, but no doubt this is due to natural superiority of white people ? Or...?

I won't even discuss the organized exploitation of southern america people (the so called 'latinos'), it disgusts me too much.

All in all, I don't say USA is worse than the states that came before it to world domination (IE :french, england), but it tends to repeat the same stupid schemes, telling to who would listen them they are superior 'moraly', negating the fact they became what they are by following an opportunistic military strategy. And, in the particular case of USA, having clever leaders in terms of economical development.

I do agree with you that the constant propaganda we can see on TV, and in hollywood films tend to convince the most gullible that USA is a perfect place, where morality and freedom are always respected, were rivers of milk and honey flows, blablabla....

END SEQUENCE : everyone watches, a tear in the eye, an american flag floating in the air...

[llamabeast]

But I think you're underestimating how many people admire the USA for its respect for laws, individual rights and egalitarian society, even those in nations that view the USA as an enemy.

Regrettably, I think the USA has become markedly worse than many European countries with regard to all of these things. I would be happy to be corrected - I have no agenda on these things, but that's certainly the perception. With regard to individual rights, I would say that Guantanamo is a horror inconceivable by most Western European countries (I know less about the east, but believe the same is true for most Eastern European countries too). With regard to an egalitarian society, America is obviously notoriously bad, with its tendency to right-wing politics making its provision for the less fortunate far worse than in Europe. I believe in that respect the UK is intermediate between the US and much of the rest of Europe.

I think this is a pity. The US makes a far bigger deal about its history of freedom and equality than in Europe (here in the UK it is common to be deeply cynical about our country), while actually being not especially good at it.

[chrispedersen]

Originally Posted by llamabeast

Regrettably, I think the USA has become markedly worse than many European countries with regard to all of these things. I would be happy to be corrected - I have no agenda on these things, but that's certainly the perception. With regard to individual rights, I would say that Guantanamo is a horror inconceivable by most Western European countries (I know less about the east, but believe the same is true for most Eastern European countries too). With regard to an egalitarian society, America is obviously notoriously bad, with its tendency to right-wing politics making its provision for the less fortunate far worse than in Europe. I believe in that respect the UK is intermediate between the US and much of the rest of Europe.

I think this is a pity. The US makes a far bigger deal about its history of freedom and equality than in Europe (here in the UK it is common to be deeply cynical about our country), while actually being not especially good at it.

So many things I disagree with.

Your own country just extended the amount of time a terror suspect may be held without requiring the surpervision of the courts, or charges. Doubled it didn't it?

Eastern Europe has well documented, state sanctioned secret prisons. Countries such as poland, rumania, italy. Where individuals of state interest were (are) held without court ccess or supervision.

Many here have talked about the holding of terror suspects at Gitmo. The term terror suspect presupposes what is at contention is a criminal trial, which is not correct.

Suppose for a moment that unmarked combattants set a bomb in a house and engaged in a firefight with US troops. In other wars they would have been deemed Prisoners of War - and held for the duration of the war. What exactly would you have the US do - release them to fight again?

Give me an example of Britain releasing all the German POWs. Or Russia.

As for the moral superiority of Western Europe - you're talking about nations such as Germany and France that made sub rosa agreements with the Red Brigades (and other terrorist organizations) that so long as terrorist incidents did not occur on French or German soil, brigadists were allowed free transit.

You're talking about a french system where guilt is presumed until proven innocent - and a French regime that allowed abuses of the Oil for Food program so long as the received below market rates on iraqi oil.

Gitmo is a horror inconceivable to Western Europeans is it? Last I checked western europe included germany which slaughtred millions of Jews, catholics, intellectuals and others in its Nazi death camps.

So spare me the moral superiourity.

As for being notoriously bad for an egalitarian society.. that could prompt an essay by itself. I'll content myself with two comments.

Liberte, egalite, fraternite are the french ideals, not American ones. America has never pretended otherwise. What America has always held is that if you work hard, keep your nose clean and invent a better widget - then you too can become filthy rich.

Lastly, if America were so notoriously bad - exactly why is it that we have 10 million people a year more or less sneaking there ways across our borders, or overstaying their visas. On top of millions more applyig for visas and green cards.

Ok. I lied. This is the last: 'I think this is a pity. The US makes a far bigger deal about its history of freedom and equality than in Europe, while actually being not especially good at it.'

We just elected a black man, raised at least part of the time in a single family President of the United States.

Let me know when you do the same in Britain, or France.

[thejeff]

Originally Posted by chrispedersen

Liberte, egalite, fraternite are the french ideals, not American ones. America has never pretended otherwise. What America has always held is that if you work hard, keep your nose clean and invent a better widget - then you too can become filthy rich.

What happened to "with liberty and justice for all"?
Not relevant, I guess. It's all about making money.


Guess I should move to France, then.