Babylon 5 Mod

[Timstone]

Hey there Nomor! Good to see you again. Where have you been?

[grumbler]

I cannot remember what the justification was for abandoning the B5 canon that starships were built in base spaceyards for the SE4 canon that starships are built on planetary spaceyards. I just was thinking about this the other day (as part of my facilities analysis) and was wondering if anyone could remind me. I am pretty sure this was discussed at one time, but cannot search through all 200+ pages of the thread to recover the argument.

Can anyone help with the justification or at least the timeframe when it was reached?

I cannot finish my v2.0 facilities recommendations without it or the risk of looking like the ADD idiot I am!

[Omnicron1]

This is from a guy who has not the time to aid in this monumental task, but idly wonders are there any playable 1.84 Versions?

Originally posted by FMMonty:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Timstone:
There is a Gold Version around. I don't know where you DL that Version. But the next Version of The Mod is under construction by yours truly. Well, it's not the next Version. It's a remake of the contans of the mod so far. But I hope this Version will become the first choice with the players around. As I said it's still under construction, so you'll have to wait a little longer.

If you'd like a hand then message me. Too much free time makes me crazy

---

[Fyron]

Omnicron1, that statement was a bit harsh. He indeed volunteered his time to help out...

[FMMonty]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Omnicron1, that statement was a bit harsh. He indeed volunteered his time to help out...

I think he meant he was after a copy of the gold, but I may be mistaken

Anyway for gold download and install the stuff from Rambies site, and then you need:-

The data files (Gold) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newup...1055128545.zip

And the ai files (gold) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newup...1055690978.zip

These were upped by pathfinder.

[Nomor]

Timstone: Went back to lurking.

[Timstone]

Nomor: Ah yes...

[Omnicron1]

yes sorry for any confusion FMMonty was correct i was just looking for a working Gold Version sorry for the confusion

Originally posted by FMMonty:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Omnicron1, that statement was a bit harsh. He indeed volunteered his time to help out...

I think he meant he was after a copy of the gold, but I may be mistaken

Anyway for gold download and install the stuff from Rambies site, and then you need:-

The data files (Gold) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newup...1055128545.zip

And the ai files (gold) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newup...1055690978.zip

These were upped by pathfinder.

---

[grumbler]

I did a bit of spreadsheet number-crunching while it rained today, and this is what I was able to
come up with in terms of a cursory fighter weapons analysis.

Please excuse any formatting issues.

Comments are welcome.

Summary:

There are 18 unique weapons that fighters can carry. Of these, 3 are seekers, one is point
defense, and 15 direct fire.

Of the three seeker types, all are race-specific:
1. The Fighter missile to the Drazi, Dilgar, and Earth Alliance;
2. The Light Ballistic Torpedo to the Centauri; and
3. The Light Ion Torpedo to the Narn and Cascor.

The PD weapon, the Dogfight Missile, is unique to the Earth Alliance.

Of the Direct fire weapons, all but one are race-specific:
1. The Light Antiproton Gun to the Vree
2. The Ion Bolt to the Centauri and the Cascor
3. The Matter Gun is unrestricted through MG III, then restricted to the Belt Alliance
4. The Light Particle Beam to the Gaim and the Llort
5. The Ultralight Particle Beam to the Abbai and the Raiders
6. The Uni-Pulse Cannon to the Earth Alliance
7. The Gatling Pulse Cannon to the Earth Alliance
8. The Paired Particle Gun to the Narn and the Drazi
9. The Particle BLaster to the Drazi
10. The Light Fusion Cannon to the Minbari
11. The Polarity Cannon to the Shadows
12. The Light Discharge Gun to the Vorlons
13. The Light Plasma Gun to the Pakmara
14. The Light EM Wave Disruptor to the Streib

The Light EM Wave Disrupter is a different style of weapon than the others, because it disrupts
reload time rather than inflicting damage. Thus, I will not consider it further.

For the remaining weapons, I will evaluate using five criteria:
1. Damage/turn/ton of fighter hull taken up (including mod for weapon to hit);
2. Target type
3. Range and loss of power over range;
4. Seeker speed (where appropriate); and
5. Cost in minerals and research points.
In all cases, I will use the “X” model of the weapon to be consistent.

First, I will look at the seekers.

For reference, the following table lists the hull space taken by the X model:

Fighter Missile X 2
Light Ballistic Torpedo X 2
Light Ion Torpedo X 2
Dogfight Missile X 3

Damage/turn/hull is as follows:

Fighter Missile X 3.38
Light Ballistic Torpedo X 4.07
Light Ion Torpedo X 3.38
Dogfight Missile X 1.36

All but the dogfight missile seek only ships. The dogfight missile seeks Ftr\Sat\ Seekers\Drone

Range is as follows (with all seekers keeping the same damage over range):

Fighter Missile X 5
Light Ballistic Torpedo X 13
Light Ion Torpedo X 11
Dogfight Missile X 4

All of the seekers have a speed of 3, except the Dogfight missile, which has a speed of 6. Note
that ship-based seekers at level 10 generally have a speed of 6.

The cost of the weapons is as follows (minerals, then RPs to level 10 rounded to nearest k):

Fighter Missile X 20 759k
Light Ballistic Torpedo X 65 759k
Light Ion Torpedo X 39 759k
Dogfight Missile X 30 759k

Summary on seekers:
While I remain highly dubious that the B5 universe accommodates seekers fired in space by fighter types (never having seen it in the series or movies), it seems that the seekers as set up are a good balance of cost versus effectiveness and they are uniquely different. I would say that the seeker speed of 3 makes them much less effective than they should be in combat, since it makes it possible for ships to outrun them rather easily. I would think it better to make the missiles move 6.

I also do not understand the rationale for having the missiles reload in combat. Where would the
reloads come from? By making reload time 35 turns you can counter-balance the effects of
increasing the speed: the fighters then are very effective on the turn they fire, and then have
to rely on direct fire weapons.

Next, the Direct Fire fighter weapons:

Again, for reference, the number of hull spaces taken by each weapon:

Name Space Taken
Light Antiproton Gun X 5
Ion Bolt X 4
Matter Gun X 2
Light Particle Beam X 4
Ultralight Particle Beam X 3
Uni-Pulse Cannon X 2
Gatling Pulse Cannon X 8
Paired Particle Gun X 9
Particle BLaster X 19
Light Fusion Cannon X 5
Polarity Cannon X 6
Light Discharge Gun X 5
Light Plasma Gun X 3

The damage/hull/turn of these weapons is as follows:

Light Antiproton Gun X 9.37
Ion Bolt X 10.06
Matter Gun X 10.90
Light Particle Beam X 9.80
Ultralight Particle Beam X 10.35
Uni-Pulse Cannon X 11.50
Gatling Pulse Cannon X 11.21
Paired Particle Gun X 10.99
Particle BLaster X 2.51
Light Fusion Cannon X 9.20
Polarity Cannon X 22.53
Light Discharge Gun X 23.88
Light Plasma Gun X 12.10

All of these weapons fire at Ships\Planets\Ftr\Sat\Drone except the Particle BLaster which fires at ships only.

Max Range is as follows

Light Antiproton Gun X 2
Ion Bolt X 6
Matter Gun X 2
Light Particle Beam X 2
Ultralight Particle Beam X 3
Uni-Pulse Cannon X 3
Gatling Pulse Cannon X 3
Paired Particle Gun X 3
Particle BLaster X 8
Light Fusion Cannon X 3
Polarity Cannon X 4
Light Discharge Gun X 5
Light Plasma Gun X 4

Here we see some of the “payback” for the Particle BLaster’s low damage levels: its range.

Generally speaking, PD weapons cannot reach this far out.

Of these weapons, most follow the 10% loss per square of range. The exceptions are the particle
bLaster and Ion bolt, both less than 5%, and the Plasma gun, at 15%

The costs of the weapons are as follows (first, cost in minerals, second cost in 100k RPs):

Light Antiproton Gun X 3 14.81
Ion Bolt X 13 9.34
Matter Gun X 0 7.59
Light Particle Beam X 1 7.59
Ultralight Particle Beam X 1 7.59
Uni-Pulse Cannon X 3 7.59
Gatling Pulse Cannon X 8 12.63
Paired Particle Gun X 9 12.63
Particle BLaster X 62 12.63
Light Fusion Cannon X 4 14.81
Polarity Cannon X 9 14.81
Light Discharge Gun X 3 10.00
Light Plasma Gun X 4 5.19

Evaluation of DF weapons:

First, it must be noted that some accommodations needs to be made for races not presently allowed
any fighter weapons other than Matter Cannons I-III. Having noted that, it is quite apparent
that the Ancient races have the best weapons, as it should be. They are both over 20 hits/hull/turn, and the younger races average around 10.

Overall, the EA comes out best when comparing weapons, because the Uni-Pulse Cannon is one of the cheaper weapons (both to research and field), is small, has an average range, and inflicts
above-average damage. The Gatling Pulse Cannon has poorer performance and is more expensive,
however.

The Pakmara light Plasma Gun fares surprisingly well in this comparison. It is cheap, does
above-average damage, has an above-average range (even accounting for its faster range
degeneration) and is small.

There are several weapons that probably are worse than the strict analysis of the numbers would
indicate: the Matter Gun, the Ultralight Particle Beam, and the Light Antiproton Gun. However, the MG has more structure than hull spaces taken, and so resists damage. It also costs nothing to install. The UPG costs no supplies to fire (which may or may not be a moot point, as supply limits have seldom kept fighters from firing in my experience).

The LAG is the exception to the rule that every weapon has a plus side. It is more expensive
than average to research, is big, short-ranged, and doesn’t inflict a lot of damage. I think it
should be reduced in size to 3 hull spaces so that it becomes a more worthwhile weapon.

Of the other weapons, two stand out. The Ion Bolt would be above average (because of damage, and range) but is limited to one per fighter and costs a lot to research. The Particle BLaster looks good on paper, but its targeting deficiencies, combined with the facts that it is huge, is slow to reload, and uses a lot of supply, make it inferior to the other option available to the Drazi, which is to mount two paired particle guns in (less than) the same space. I cannot think of the circumstances under which the extra range of the PB would make me want to build a special class of fighters to contain it.

If you were to categorize the races according to the fighter weapons they get, you might conclude
that:
1. The Vree should stay away from fighters, by and large. They get to produce the Extra
Light Fighter, but have nothing to arm it with.
2. The Cascor and Centauri can produce some interesting fighters based on the Ion bolt and
some torpedoes, but why the Centauri can produce the Ion Bolt and not the Ion torpedo escapes me.
3. The Narn can produce no really worthwhile fighters until they can employ the Paired
particle Beam, and even then their fighters will be slow. They will have to rely on the slow Ion
Torpedo as their main fighter weapon until they get large fighters.
4. The Drazi have lots of choices when it comes to fighters, but few good ones. Like the
Narn, they will have poor fighters (armed with missiles or low-grade Matter Guns) until they can
produce very large fighters.
5. The Dilgar have almost no choices.
6. The Earth Alliance has the only broad range of weapons to choose from. Some of the later choices are counter-productive, but this can be remedied.
7. The Gaim and Llort have no good fighter weapons, but the one they have isn’t hopelessly
outclassed like the Vree’s. Their fighters will just be inferior.
8. The Abbai and Raiders are similar. The weapon they have is just inferior, not totally
outclassed.
9. The Minbari have a good weapon but it is too large to allow them to have the kind of fast
and nimble fighters we know that had. Also, their weapon is inferior to the EA weapons, and we know this was not true, even late in the series.
10. The Streib are incomplete.

The specific changes I would suggest are:
1. Either eliminate the Particle BLaster or give it much more damage.
2. Change the following weapons sizes (and adjust damage inflicted somewhat to bring them
near 10 dam/turn/hull):

Name Now Should be
Light Antiproton Gun X 5 3
Matter Gun X 2 3
Uni-Pulse Cannon X 2 3
Paired Particle Gun X 9 6
Light Fusion Cannon X 5 4

3. Make the Matter Gun through level 10 available to all races.
4. Consider making the default weapons size for all types something like 2 hull, and then
create weapons mounts for the larger fighters that would add damage, range, and cost. This would really only work well with QNP for fighters, which is easily doable (and in fact I have done it, if anyone is interested in seeing the still-in-test-stage results).

A nit from the TV series and movies isn’t reflected in the game: we know from Endgame that both EA and Minbari fighter DF weapons can target missiles. The game does not allow such weapons
(that can target ships and seekers). Is it worthwhile creating weak PD weapons that can only be mounted one per ship to get this effect?

[The Canuck]

dats alot o writting, but very insightful

good work grumbler

[ August 11, 2003, 00:58: Message edited by: The Canuck ]