OT: US President (US Dom Players only)

[chrispedersen]

Originally Posted by sum1lost

You know, McCain was suggesting the exact same thing, oddly enough. You try them before deciding that they are terrorists, instead of jailing them.

As I said, I don't mind the idea of trying them. Flying them to the US and affording them the same protections of a US citizen is a huge expansion of judicial oversight, with not a shred of constitutional justification.

[thejeff]

What do you mean by "affording them the same protections of a US citizen"?

How does our criminal justice system distinguish between US citizens and foreigners? Are you suggesting a British citizen (for example) would have less protections in a US court if accused of a crime?

[chrispedersen]

Rights of a British citizen (consular access, jurisprudence etc) are covered under a whole host of agreements, treaties and laws that are already established.

An aide leaking that the Obama campaign *is going* to to shut down Gitmo. etc (as in original post) and making that determination in advance of choosing an attorney general, in advance of consulting with JCS, or your secretary of state, especially in the case of setting legal precedent is troubling.

Closing gitmo may *be* the best course of action. Bush tried to willy nilly establish a new set of rules; he was shot down - but just because Obama is making a diametrically opposite position doesn't mean it is the correct decision, and it doesn't mean it isn't a willy nilly decision. But I would rather have confidence that Obama has the participation of his team on this. I'd rather have the knowledge that the ramifications have been discovered - and on such a polarizing issue, I'd like him to explain the decision.

Some things require haste - the banking crisis. Somethings require deliberative speed.

[llamabeast]

America has built its self-image and place in the world on an assumption of having the moral high ground, of being a country with exceptional liberties. But in recent years it has been trying to do this while simultaneously committing astonishing human rights violations at Guantanamo. America would have no hesitation in condemning any other country guilty of the same things, and indeed the rest of the world has had no hesitation in condemning America. The damage to America's international reputation has been, in my opinion, enormous. It is hard to respect the morality of a country which tolerates such abuses. To be honest, even if you don't care a jot about human rights, it's worth putting considerable effort into fixing Guantanamo just for the foreign relations benefits it offers.

[Ylvali]

Well spoken llamabeast. But it is important to remember that Guantanamo is bit a small peice of a great puzzle. I am not convinced that "fixing" it makes much of a difference unless part of a massive program to abolish the practices it represents. Neither gitmo or Abu ghraib are unique in any way, they just happened to get exposed.

However, giving enemy combattants lawyers, and flying them to the united states and trying them in court is - lunacy.

Just like international law and human rights in general, right? You do know these rights are confirmed in several international agreements. But it sure seems like the american goverments have agreed with you so far, since those agreements have been sytematically violated for decades.

Furthermore since the trial is necessary to confirm the status of "enemy combattant" or "terrorist" your reasining falls because they are not (yet) confirmed as such when those rights are granted. Hence any rights cannot be denied for this reason until after trial.

I am not at all convinced Obama represents any real change on those issues, but I hope so.

[Humakty]

Yeah, Guantanamo is too much, they should have done as before : torture them on the spot. I mean, isn't it a sign of responsibility to admit you have concentration camps for people you don't like ?

Jokes put aside : there aren't hundreds of way to obtain info people won't give you.

[Agema]

I would say that the US, as inherited from Britain and the Magna Carta, is established on the Rule Of Law. The rule of law in America I believe also states quite unambiguously, as an essential premise, that all should be equal before the eyes of the law. It doesn't matter whether it's a foreign terrorist or a local pickpocket. I cannot say enough how much that is a principle America or any other civilised nation should be proud of, admired for, and right to uphold.

Currently, Guantanamo Bay humiliates the above principles. If you're American, you may have no idea how much it harms your national reputation in the eyes of the world. Bush, and therefore the US government, has caused the mess. If the next administration needs to make some unpalatable decisions to clear it up and restore the nation's honour, so be it.

[Humakty]

Guantanamo has this particular trait that it is officially admitted as existing by the government. That is unpreceded in american history. But I find it naive to think that, before it, american did not torture prisonners.

So lets say that, by closing Guantanamo, USA will restore their apparent honour.

[Tichy]

Cell-phone cameras have really done a number on plausible deniability.

[Humakty]

Arf,Arf ! What technology have done for you today ?