AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent

[SunDevil]

JLS,

The only reason why I mentioned the research and intelligence max resource points, is for two reasons.

1. I like to play with technology cost set to high which until now, didn't realize how much the ai gets hamstrung towards the middle/late part of the game when they can only put out either 100,000 research points for some races and others can put out 1,000,000 research points.

2. With your additions of having cities, and numerous variations of population centers which each can generate a lot of research and intelligence points it just seems that the ai could potentially reseach topics faster and have a wider supply of intelligence points to defend itself against other race's intel attacks.

Just my .02 cents. It is really cool to see this mod change and get better with each new Version, great job.

SunDevil

[JLS]

And a good two cents at that, consider your advise taken

[oleg]

Originally posted by JLS:
Oleg, for me to be more specific on the basic Parameters, I would need to know your AIs Race, Culture, Demeanor, and Specific Traits, that you have in mind for your AI?

I want to make a race that likes BIG GUNS. Default weapon will be Antimatter/Quantum torpedos. Also, to have BIG guns, the race will research and build BIG ships earlier than other races. I was thinking of using Crystalline trait but then realised that Cruiser with 3-4 crystall armor and armor plating (invulnerable to normal damege up to 50 !!) will be too tough in early game.

I also have a question about small anti-matter torpedos. It looks like an almost useless weapon ! size 11, reload 4, damage 40. One would be better of with small APB - it has double damage to shields at least or with armor skipping rocket pods. Small AMT also has -60 to -40 weapon modifier ! Worst fighter weapon IMHO. Let make it reload time of 3 !

[JLS]

Originally posted by oleg:

quote:

---

Originally posted by JLS:
Oleg, for me to be more specific on the basic Parameters, I would need to know your AIs Race, Culture, Demeanor, and Specific Traits, that you have in mind for your AI?

I want to make a race that likes BIG GUNS. Default weapon will be Antimatter/Quantum torpedos. Also, to have BIG guns, the race will research and build BIG ships earlier than other races. I was thinking of using Crystalline trait but then realised that Cruiser with 3-4 crystall armor and armor plating (invulnerable to normal damege up to 50 !!) will be too tough in early game.

---

I agree, the Antimatter/Quantum torpedoes Values is a fine choice as a Big Gun at Torpedo Weapons tech 6+

If I understand you correctly, Oleg. You want to have a Crystalline Race. With a Big Gun of Antimatter/Quantum torpedoes, why not the Crystalline Weapons?

As the AI or Human Player this would take an Extremely Long time to Research all the Techs you suggest:

Quantum Torpedo
Emissive Armor Plate V
Cruiser Hull
Crystalline Armor III
Crystalline Weapons V
And a reasonable Shield and Sensors.

As a Human Player Strategy, the extreame Cost of Plate, will reduce your Fleet Size.

Most AI designs in AIC do not Exceed Emissive Armor Plate III, and this tends to ware thin on their Maintenance.
In some games, it actually will send the Terran AI into a tailspin, sometime even before he looses a few Mineral Planets

At this time the AI, does not Research Advanced Design Engineering It will be reflected as a Human Player only Tech, in the next Version.

I suggest, you use an existing AIC race as a template, for the AI you are Constructing.

Please, EMail me your AI Folder, when you are completed and we will give it a test drive, before general release

Sullivan_JohnL@msn.com

---------------------------------------

Name := Crystalline Armor III
Description := Crystal lattice armor used to protect a ship from physical damage.
Pic Num := 191
Tonnage Space Taken := 30
Tonnage Structure := 150
Cost Minerals := 70
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 70
Vehicle Type := Ship\Base
Supply Amount Used := 0
Restrictions := None
General Group := Armor
Family := 34
Roman Numeral := 3
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Crystalline Technology
Tech Level Req 1 := 3
Number of Abilities := 2
Ability 1 Type := Armor
Ability 1 Descr := Is damaged before any other components on a ship.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 0
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Shield Generation From Damage
Ability 2 Descr := 15 points of damage per hit will be channeled into the shields.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 15
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Weapon Type := None

Name := Ultra Armor Plating II
Description := Heavy external armor plating covering the entire hull, which reduces the damage of every hit from most weapon types. (Use a scale mount.)
Pic Num := 309
Tonnage Space Taken := 500
Tonnage Structure := 2650
Cost Minerals := 30000
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 0
Vehicle Type := Ship\Base
Supply Amount Used := 0
Restrictions := None
General Group := Armor
Family := 2910
Roman Numeral := 2
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 2
Tech Area Req 1 := Armor
Tech Level Req 1 := 8
Tech Area Req 2 := Advanced Design Engineering
Tech Level Req 2 := 3
Number of Abilities := 2
Ability 1 Type := Drop Troops
Ability 1 Descr :=
Ability 1 Val 1 := 0
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Emissive Armor
Ability 2 Descr := Deflects 15 damage per hit.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 15
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Weapon Type := None

Name := Emissive Armor Plate V
Description := A composite armored shell which absorbs energy and radiates it back into space. (Use a scale mount.)
Pic Num := 30
Tonnage Space Taken := 200
Tonnage Structure := 1400
Cost Minerals := 9000
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 2000
Vehicle Type := Ship\Base
Supply Amount Used := 0
Restrictions := None
General Group := Armor
Family := 1045
Roman Numeral := 5
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 3
Tech Area Req 1 := Armor
Tech Level Req 1 := 6
Tech Area Req 2 := Physics
Tech Level Req 2 := 2
Tech Area Req 3 := Emissive Armor
Tech Level Req 3 := 5
Number of Abilities := 2
Ability 1 Type := Emissive Armor
Ability 1 Descr := Negates any damage of 35 or less.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 35
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Armor
Ability 2 Descr := Is damaged before any other components on a ship.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 0
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Weapon Type := None

[ June 22, 2003, 15:45: Message edited by: JLS ]

[JLS]

Originally posted by oleg:
I also have a question about small anti-matter torpedos. It looks like an almost useless weapon ! size 11, reload 4, damage 40. One would be better of with small APB - it has double damage to shields at least or with armor skipping rocket pods. Small AMT also has -60 to -40 weapon modifier ! Worst fighter weapon IMHO. Let make it reload time of 3 !

Thanks, Oleg.
Lets take a look at it, for the next Version

[ June 22, 2003, 18:12: Message edited by: JLS ]

[SunDevil]

JLS,

I have a question for you. Right now the ai races don't seem to be able to build to much infrastructure on their planets. Here are two examples that if you could explain I would appreciate it.

AI_Construction_Facilities.txt

1.
AI State := Exploration, Infrastructure, Prepare for Attack, Attack, Secure Holdings After Attack, Incursion, Prepare for Defense, Defend (Short Term), Defend (Long Term), Not Connected
Construction Queue Type := Mining Colony
Num Queue Entries := 14
Facility 1 Ability := Supply Generation
Facility 1 Amount := 1
Facility 2 Ability := Movement Bonus
Facility 2 Amount := 2
Facility 3 Ability := Resource Gen Modifier System - Minerals
Facility 3 Amount := 1
Facility 4 Ability := Modify Reproduction - System
Facility 4 Amount := 1
Facility 5 Ability := Change Population - System
Facility 5 Amount := 1
Facility 6 Ability := Shield Modifier - System
Facility 6 Amount := 1
Facility 7 Ability := Planet Value Change - System
Facility 7 Amount := 1
Facility 8 Ability := Reduced Maintenance Cost - System
Facility 8 Amount := 1
Facility 9 Ability := Combat Modifier - System
Facility 9 Amount := 1
Facility 10 Ability := Ship Bridge
Facility 10 Amount := 1
Facility 11 Ability := Movement Bonus
Facility 11 Amount := 5
Facility 12 Ability := Component Destroyed On Use
Facility 12 Amount := 1
Facility 13 Ability := Resource Gen Modifier Planet - Minerals
Facility 13 Amount := 1
Facility 14 Ability := Movement Bonus
Facility 14 Amount := 100

***What is the point in putting in Movement Bonus abilities to a construction queue. And how many actual mining facilities will be built? Where are the mineral storage facilities which even though the ai has low mineral costs for ship building, the actual facilites themselves are quite expensive to build. And I don't see where the ai would build towns, cities any of the other multi use structures you have added to the mod. Can the ai build these?
2.
AI State := Exploration, Infrastructure, Prepare for Attack, Attack, Secure Holdings After Attack, Incursion, Prepare for Defense, Defend (Short Term), Defend (Long Term), Not Connected
Construction Queue Type := Farming Colony
Num Queue Entries := 15
Facility 1 Ability := Supply Generation
Facility 1 Amount := 1
Facility 2 Ability := Quantum Reactor
Facility 2 Amount := 2
Facility 3 Ability := Combat Modifier - System
Facility 3 Amount := 1
Facility 4 Ability := Planet Conditions Change - System
Facility 4 Amount := 1
Facility 5 Ability := Planet Value Change - System
Facility 5 Amount := 1
Facility 6 Ability := Resource Gen Modifier System - Organics
Facility 6 Amount := 1
Facility 7 Ability := Modify Reproduction - System
Facility 7 Amount := 1
Facility 8 Ability := Change Population - System
Facility 8 Amount := 1
Facility 9 Ability := Shield Modifier - System
Facility 9 Amount := 1
Facility 10 Ability := Reduced Maintenance Cost - System
Facility 10 Amount := 1
Facility 11 Ability := Ship Bridge
Facility 11 Amount := 1
Facility 12 Ability := Quantum Reactor
Facility 12 Amount := 5
Facility 13 Ability := Component Destroyed On Use
Facility 13 Amount := 1
Facility 14 Ability := Resource Gen Modifier Planet - Organics
Facility 14 Amount := 1
Facility 15 Ability := Quantum Reactor
Facility 15 Amount := 100

***What is the point in having the Quantum Reactor ability added to the construction facility queue or a ship bridge ability.

Now the only reason why I am bringing this topic up is that the ai has a very hard time in keeping up in production of resources, intel, research points, and population growth. In my games that I have played I am always in first place in the score window, and the ai players are usually far behind in scores. When I check the ai building queues they are usually empty and not building anything, even though they have room on the planet for more facilities. I have also checked the TDM-modpack and looked at the those ai races ai_facilities_construction file and especially the EarthAlliance made by Mephisto and I don't see any weird abilities added to the files, and I just don't see how the way these files are setup in your mod how they are suppose to provide the ai a chance to compete in regards to infrastructure.

This is your mod and you definitely know more about what is going on then I do, but if you could please explain your logic behind this file I would appreciate it. Thanks for your time.

SunDevil

P.S. Here is a sample of the EarthAlliance facility build queue.

***EarthAlliance - Ai construction facility.txt file, created by Mephisto all rights reseverd.
***
AI State := Exploration, Infrastructure, Prepare for Attack, Attack, Secure Holdings After Attack, Incursion, Prepare for Defense, Defend (Short Term), Defend (Long Term), Not Connected
Construction Queue Type := Mining Colony
Num Queue Entries := 16
Facility 1 Ability := Planet - Change Atmosphere
Facility 1 Amount := 1
Facility 2 Ability := Resource Generation - Minerals
Facility 2 Amount := 1
Facility 3 Ability := Supply Generation
Facility 3 Amount := 1
Facility 4 Ability := Spaceport
Facility 4 Amount := 1
Facility 5 Ability := Resource Generation - Minerals
Facility 5 Amount := 3
Facility 6 Ability := Point Generation - Research
Facility 6 Amount := 1
Facility 7 Ability := Space Yard
Facility 7 Amount := 1
Facility 8 Ability := Resource Generation - Minerals
Facility 8 Amount := 4
Facility 9 Ability := Resource Gen Modifier System - Minerals
Facility 9 Amount := 1
Facility 10 Ability := Resource Gen Modifier Planet - Minerals
Facility 10 Amount := 1
Facility 11 Ability := Planet - Change Minerals Value
Facility 11 Amount := 1
Facility 12 Ability := Resource Generation - Minerals
Facility 12 Amount := 6
Facility 13 Ability := Resource Storage - Mineral
Facility 13 Amount := 1
Facility 14 Ability := Resource Storage - Radioactives
Facility 14 Amount := 1
Facility 15 Ability := Resource Storage - Organics
Facility 15 Amount := 1
Facility 16 Ability := Resource Generation - Minerals
Facility 16 Amount := 100

[ June 23, 2003, 03:37: Message edited by: SunDevil ]

[cybersol]

JLS or oleg could answer this more fully.

Until then, when you find something like movement bonus for construction facilities in AIC, I recommend going to the data directory and searching Facility.txt. If you do, you will see for example that the mining type components all have the movement bonus ability.

I was first puzzled by ship components in Design Creation with the Ancient Ruins ability until I looked into components.txt

A lot of this is in proportions also, and it is a brilliant use of these meaningless abilities to make the AI better and more flexible.

[oleg]

About fighter weapons:

I do not like the long reload times for weapons such as small rocket pods. Just watch closer the combat reply with fighters. Typical situation: fighter group fires and have 7 turns to reload. During this time, it run away. Once it has ready weapons it turns back. But now it several turns away from enemy ships ! It must spend several combat turns to come to close range I estimate the actual firing rate to be 9-10 turns. Only in big fleet battles fighters can close in to some enemy ship faster. I think fighters shuld have faster firing rate. They look silly flying back and forth under PDC fire.

Here is a curious situation from my game that prompted me to write this post :
I attack the moderate enemy fleet (about 10 frigates ) with 3 carriers (transport hulls). My fighters are armed with small rocket pods. Battle layout : enemy at the center, my ships on the east. They launch fighters and run away. Fighters fly to west, enemy advance toward carriers. Somewhere in the middle fighters encounter ships, fire their weapons and fly away to reload. They fly to WEST, while enemy ships continue to go to EAST. When fighters reload and turn back, they are dozens of sectors away ! With speed advantage of only 2, such stern chase is hopeless !! It took them 15 turns to catch up enemy ships. And only because they got to the edge of the map and killed my helpless carriers Overall, during the battle fighters fired only TWICE ! If they had weaker weapons but reasonable rate, I would won...

I suggest to make the reload time 4 and shave 5 points of damage.

[JLS]

Originally posted by SunDevil:
JLS,

Now the only reason why I am bringing this topic up is that the ai has a very hard time in keeping up in production of resources, intel, research points, and population growth. In my games that I have played I am always in first place in the score window, and the ai players are usually far behind in scores. When I check the ai building queues they are usually empty and not building anything, even though they have room on the planet for more facilities. I have also checked the TDM-modpack and looked at the those ai races ai_facilities_construction file and especially the EarthAlliance made by Mephisto and I don't see any weird abilities added to the files, and I just don't see how the way these files are setup in your mod how they are suppose to provide the ai a chance to compete in regards to infrastructure.

This is your mod and you definitely know more about what is going on then I do, but if you could please explain your logic behind this file I would appreciate it. Thanks for your time.

SunDevil

Good mourning, SunDevil

As far as I can see, you have been playing AIC for a few months, now.
You are a very astute, and knowledgeable se4 and one of the finest and most critical fans AIC has, and I thank you for this. Now, clearly in the Last few months you would of noticed and indicated to all of us here, if there was a lapse in all the AI players Construction goals.

However, I have been out with the flu most of Last week and this past weekend, so I am behind in the follow-up beta testing of AIC v3.02 myself, and with:

AI players Atmospheric Converters just in Beta
AI Troops vs. Human Troops are in Beta
AI Psychic Intel File coming out of Beta

You may be on to something, although I have not herd from the others in regards to any major bugs as of yet.

I am happy to here you are ahead of the AI in the games you play, most players can not achieve this so soon, in most standard AI Low bonus games; until the reach a few hundred; even some games Lasting to 500 turns before the are in the top 3. In addition, there may be a few games they are defeated or the Human Player just may resigns.

In regards to TDM, I have always said, in my opinion would be one of the most difficult mods to program the AI successfully. This is due, to the primary fact that everything they achieved is from good stock, and unmodified as it relates to the Original se4 files and I do believe the TDM team has done a fantastic job. Moreover, TDM fully deserve all the accolades they have achieved over the years.

In regards to AI Campaign, well, it is not even finished and yes, still going thru the growing pains that any project will experience, and if not for the input of yourself SunDevil and you GLV, as well as others; AIC would not be half the mod; I expect it to become, when WE all are finished, wouldn’t you say

[ June 23, 2003, 15:24: Message edited by: JLS ]

[SunDevil]

Grand Lord Vito,

Thanks for your response, but you didn't answer any of my questions. Yes, I have modified the AIC mod, but since you don't have a clue on what I have added or changed there would be no reason bring this into the discussion. I don't have a problem this time, I just wanted someone who had experience with this mod to look at the three facility build queues and tell me why with the abilities added like movement bonus and quantum reactor the ai will build more facilities and what facilities would be built.

What I did not ask for was a defence of how good this game is on the ai bonus levels. I don't care, because as you pointed out I have changed the mod. So if you have any modding experience and can contribute to my post in a productive way then please I would like to hear your opinion, if not then save your advertisements of how good the ai is on what bonus levels for someone else, because I will never ask anyone who has contributed to this mod how good it is, because I already know.

SunDevil