OT: Free speech?

[JayBdey]

America committed atrocities too.

America dropped incendiary bombs on the German town of Dresden. Dresden was a town of mostly old wooden buildings and the fire created a surge of air that sucked people into it. The death toll of the Dresden bombing exceeded the atomic bLasts on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. These people were burned to death by the firestorm that sucked them into the core of the fire. It would have been a slow, horribly painful death for many of them.

Yet no kids in America learn about this in school, and you won’t see it on the history channel.

[Randallw]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Its always about the Jews... what about the dozens of other instances of genocide in the 20th century? For example, millions of Armenians were slaughtered sometime around 1920 or so... the Jews are nothing special or unique.

At risk of being criticised, I have always assumed its because there are so many powerful jewish people in the developed world. They make sure no one forgets. I don't think there are many famous Armenians (apart from Cher ) reminding people.

[dogscoff]

I don't think there are many famous Armenians (apart from Cher ) reminding people.

Well I never knew that. I always assumed she was Jewish...

Something else about the holocaust that many people don't realise is that Hitler also sent disabled people, the mentally ill and a whole bunch of ethnic Groups to the gas chambers. Although the jewish population suffered most in terms of sheer numbers of people killed, the romany gypsies were damn near exterminated altogether. (there were less of them to start with.)

[Grauzone]

Originally posted by JayBdey:
America committed atrocities too.

America dropped incendiary bombs on the German ...

Yet no kids in America learn about this in school, and you won’t see it on the history channel.

I agree you. I have an impression most Americans see the world a little bit different as e.g. most of the "Old-Europeans". But what is the cause of this interesting point of view?

My opinion is: the cause is the history of a country and its representation in the historical education in the scools. I know it from Germany: Here is the main focus of history in scool WWII and the Genocide on Jews. As a result an german kid has often an impression to be guilty in things happen over 60 yeas ago. I don't beleave in "Erbschuld" (is an concept that faults of parents are also the faults of their children). As result of this scool indoctrination most germans have an abcence of patriotism. To say "I'm proud to be a german" can stamp you as an radical nationalist.

I think USA have an inverted problem. It's a kind of fragmented Identity. A nation that defends "human rights", "freedom of speech" and "democracy" all over the world MUST NOT break this rules so open and so often (also in own country) because of nobody can punish this country for such delicts.

But problems of this kind are solvable over few years. Many germans owe a new kind of "patriotism" to Rumsfeld. He gives them an alternative identification. Not as "forever guilty german" but as "peace loving old-european" .

Sorry for my bad English

[Grauzone]

Originally posted by dogscoff:

Something else about the holocaust that many people don't realise is that Hitler also sent disabled people, ... [/QB]

Hitler was not only one. Stalin has killed in the same time many more people. But russian archives are not so exact as german archives are.

[Randallw]

Stalin murdered many more of his own people* than Hitler yet Hitler is considered worse. Perhaps it was because under Stalin people were shipped off to Siberia where they just happened to die, or people just happened to die because of the communists caring more about their plan than the starving Ukrainian peasants. The soviets were just less exact in what they did. The Nazi efforts were planned to specifically kill people. There is a joke that in Nazi Germany at least the trains ran on time, but what is important is what the trains were doing. The Germans get criticised more, either rightly or wrongly, because they were more specific and planned things to the Last detail. It may not be so much that people were killed but that the one regime had a Mission statement and list of goals etc (almost like modern business) Truely History is written by the victor.

*strangely enough neither Stalin or Hitler was actually from the country he ran.

[ May 19, 2004, 11:53: Message edited by: Randallw ]

[Atrocities]

I wonder if Mel Gibson is going to make a movie about the holocaust? The Pation of The War?

I have no desire to his current movie, from what I have heard it is all about hate and blame. We have enough of that in the world now and we don't need any more.

[sachmo]

Originally posted by JayBdey:
America committed atrocities too.

America dropped incendiary bombs on the German town of Dresden. Dresden was a town of mostly old wooden buildings and the fire created a surge of air that sucked people into it. The death toll of the Dresden bombing exceeded the atomic bLasts on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. These people were burned to death by the firestorm that sucked them into the core of the fire. It would have been a slow, horribly painful death for many of them.

Yet no kids in America learn about this in school, and you won’t see it on the history channel.

Many of the casualties from the firebombing attacks in Germany and Japan were from asphyxiation and smoke inhalation. It was indeed a horrible, horrible way to die. The problem is in what position you take on the subject. If you believe that it was necessary to save more lives, then it becomes acceptable. I have a feeling that if there were chemical bombs and/or nuclear weapons going off in America, there would have been far less outcry about the prisoner abuse.

And I learned about the firebombing of Germany and Japan in high school in the late 80's. I have also seen it documented on the History Channel. Maybe they don't talk about this in school anymore, because it might offend someone. I'll ask my kids when they get there.

[Grauzone]

Originally posted by sachmo:
The problem is in what position you take on the subject. If you believe that it was necessary to save more lives, then it becomes acceptable. I have a feeling that if there were chemical bombs and/or nuclear weapons going off in America, there would have been far less outcry about the prisoner abuse.

It is never acceptable to fall back to such kind of barbarism. Not for people who say they defend "freedom", "peace" and "human rights". Acceptance for such practics for enemies leads in most cases to use same practics on own population few years later.

[CNCRaymond]

DELURKING


*I had considered toning this down a bit, but I really wanted to convey my anger over this ageless argument about WWII. So bare in mind that I mean no one here any disrespect at all. This is not a personal attack against any one and if you find it offensive or insulting, remember you chose to read it after I warned you.*

Read at own risk, stongly worded comment to follow. If you offend easily, do not read. If you do read and are offended, remember you chose to read it.

I always love to read how people of today judge what happened in WWII by today’s standards. I almost laugh at their logic.

Any argument based on the beliefs of today, judging that era, is flawed to the point of being useless.

So you can use your examples about what occurred in that era and try and say they were atrocities by today’s standards all you want. Unless you were alive then and lived through that time you have no right to pass judgment.

Germany firebombed England too you know.

Japan treated its POW's so horribly that many who are alive today STILL hate the Japanese people and are grateful that we dropped the H-bomb on the island not once but twice. Given the alternative, them or us, we chose them. That is the nature of war.

It how you treat your enemies AFTER you have beaten that shows the world if you’re a monster or not. The US was very generous with its enemies following the war and that record has never been questioned.

War is hell and if another world war were to come, we would all find this out first hand, and I promise you, the gloves will come off and no matter how many liberal, save you from your rights, left wing lets just surrender, flag burning, protesting, anti American Americans there are, we will do what we must to survive.

You can fire off your counter points, I won't be reading them.

RE-LURKING