OT: For all the genocidal dictators...

[Puke]

[quote]Originally posted by geoschmo:

But all in all, if I were on trial for my life I'd rather have a lawyer than a man of principle working for me. It's a shame though that those are often mutually exclusive.

why is that a shame? and why should 'principals' be applied equally to all? that smacks of communism, good man. people of greater means should be able to buy better representation, thus encouraging those of lesser means to strive to better their position. my only complaint is that there is no practical way to enforce a 100% inheritance tax, to keep layabouts from becoming people of significant means.

give me an even playing field, and cut-throat commercialism. its just not as easy to even the playing field as it should be. if only people really were created equal. ah well, better living through chemistry, and someday they will be.

[TerranC]

Originally posted by Puke:
and why should 'principals' be applied equally to all? that smacks of communism, good man.

That's not communism. That's not capitalism.
That is a mixture of both called socialism.

[Will]

Originally posted by Puke:
and why should 'principals' be applied equally to all? that smacks of communism, good man.

And what's really wrong with communism? It seems to me that there is still way too much residual effect from the US anti-communism propaganda campaign during the Cold War. People never stopped and realized that the Soviets were not, and never were going to be, communists. Same with China, North Korea, and whatever other countries currently have what the US has ignorantly labeled "communist government". Communism in its pure form is really a complete lack of government; wealth and power is held equally by all. Of course, because of human nature, communism will never happen in a group of any significant size.

Back to the thread's topic, though... First, I didn't quite expect a reaction as big as this. After all, I can be quite certain that anyone who argued that the subject of the site's satire is wrong and illegal, is being quite a hypocrite. Unless they have NEVER fired a single shot at a planet in SEIV There are countless threads that talk about glassing enemy planets, and I don't recall anyone making a fuss about "killing" sentient alien populations. Only difference really, is fewer clicks.

I actually thought it was more humorous that somebody actually bothered to create a site for that. I didn't dig in deep enough to see it was a mouse manufacturer, I guess.

[Puke]

Originally posted by Will:
And what's really wrong with communism?:

you're kidding? is a crappy economic system based on fantasic ideals. and by fantastic, i mean fantasy. la-la-land.

Communism in its pure form is really a complete lack of government; wealth and power is held equally by all. Of course, because of human nature, communism will never happen in a group of any significant size.

see? you agree.

[QB]Back to the thread's topic, though... [QB]

yep, i agree with everything following the elipsis. ill shut up and go away now.

[d0b]

Of course foreign policy is supposed to benefit your country but the USA being the most powerful country they have far more influence and immunity from their actions than possibly anyone else. So their policy infringes on other countries in ways that you would not accept if a hypothetical more powerful country did to you.

[ July 16, 2002, 08:17: Message edited by: d0b ]

[Growltigga]

Crime has been a global problem for a lot longer than the Internet has existed. Computers merely speed up the transactions, and enable a few new ones

This is exactly what I said

But all in all, if I were on trial for my life I'd rather have a lawyer than a man of principle working for me. It's a shame though that those are often mutually exclusive

Ooh, I think you need to get off your anti-lawyer kick.. lawyers are not overpaid compared to other professionals (eg accountants, actuaries and venture capitalists particularily). Given that it takes most of us 6-8 years to even qualify (and we take loans to fund university and law school) and then you can be assured of 70-80 hour weeks for the rest of your life, together with the second highest work levels of stress going, we are then criminally underpaid. The legal profession, certainly in the UK, has the highest number of people wanting to change jobs but cant due to preciseness of training, why would we want to due that if we were so overpaid?

another point, the new trainee in my room is 25, earn about $18K a year and has just started her career, after law school, she says she is $42K in debt...

my next door neighbour is an accountant, he has a mercedes and a BMW.. I drive a 9 year old Renault clio that is frankly held together by rust and stubborn understains

wow, ease up guys. lets not get angry with each other about dancing styles, sports brawls, and income brackets. i cant dance, im unsporting, and i make more money than i deserve. go ahead and get mad at me for it, both of you.

Puke, it sounds like you have enough problems of your own... the point I want to make here Geo is that I showed your post on our sports behaviour to 2 germans, 1 belgian and 3 english colleagues... it really was better than laughing gas.. to accuse us of jingoism and patriotric fervour in our sports is an absolute classic, do the words "pot", "kettle" and "black" mean anything to you.

The rest of the world praised Salt Lake for the cracking winter olympics earlier this year. Brilliantly organised, excellent for world sport.. the rest of the world also pointedfly remarked that US supporters should really learn to be less partisan.. it is just insulting the lengths it is taken to (booing other teams?? yeah, really sporting)

WRONG.

Pax, wake up and smell the roses. YOur statements are frighteningly naive (or idealistic, I am not sure)

Freedom of Speech is constitutionalised in the US, rather than legislated as it is in most european countries.

So you think this means you can say what you like about what you like when you like.

Fine, try it. You try and take your soap box to the middle of your town today and preach on something like kiddy porn. You think you will be free to do so?

WRONG. You will be arrested. Try looking at the US public order offences and see what they really say.

We actually have more "freedom of speech" as you define in in europe. If our rights are breached, it is illegal and we can take the police to the lower courts. In the US, any constittuional breach goes to the Federal Supreme COurt...

Are your principles backed up by enbough cash to do this?

[Fyron]

In the US, lawyers in general are paid absurd amounts of money.

[Growltigga]

Fyron, you are right.

The statistics are that 85% of the world's lawyers are in the United States.

The pay differential is scary. I was speaking to an American lawyer of equivalent grade to me a couple of weeks back. We talked salaries and I choked when he told me that his pay was 8 times what mine was, and that he got a bonus.

Who do we think is paying for all this?

It is scary

[Growltigga]

Well, they aren't all overpaid anyway...

Geo, if you wish to criticise lawyers, I should ask you to ensure you qualify your remarks by reference to stating that you are remarking on US attorneys, and not lawyers or advocates around the globe

Geo, what do you do for a living?

[/quote]Gt, please do try to keep your comments at least a little bit to the point of the discussion. You keep going off on these tangents where noone else has gone

Oh dear, Geo, the whole point of an argument or a debate is that is comprises two mutually contradicting viewpoints that (hopefully) reaches some form of consensus through logical discussion. I am not going off on a tangent, I am simply responding or giving examples to the left-field remarks you have made.

I am also not prejudiced against all things American (I even own a Hammecher Schlammer cat rehydrator). I am slightly prejudiced against the national perception/world view Americans have a tendency to project to the rest of humble mortals lucky enough to share the planet with Americans but generally, I like Americans fine.

Your comments WERE directed at soccer fans and as such, are bound to be emotive to those of us who profess to enjoy soccer. My comments on linedancers I will admit are pure self-opinion.

Yes, booing is one thing, it is poor sportsmanship, and I would point out that having Asked Jeeves/google searched and checked, no-one can remember anyone ever being beaten up in any form of mass riot/fight at a Winter Olympics for carrying wrong flags or otherwise - what point are you trying to make by what appears to be a flawed comparator

In my mind you either have freedom of speech either or you don't have freedom of speech. It's a human condition, it's not about countries.

Again, your point is flawed, freedom of speech can be said to be a human condition but we are talking about how it can be manifested, and that is governed by national legal systems

I get it completely unfortunately. Racism in the US is not illegal. It is not illegal in 99% of Western democracies and the Klu Klux Klan, as the British National Party or the German Neo-Nazis factions are fully entitled to demonstrate and do what they want to profess a hatred for other races. What they cannot do is incite. Of course, any recourse to violence will be slammed down under provbably every jurisictional system.
Back to our example of public policy issues such as kiddy porn, try and get a permit for tholding a debating forum or rally for that and find out if you will get it. You wont. Therefor, you are saying that your right to exercise freedom of speech is being repressed and that constitutionally, you have a right to this. Try again.

Where do you get your incorrect ideas about the US? I guess the European press must protray America as some sort of facist police state. I guess if a few shameful incidents get all the TV coverage that is what you would think. I can tell you I live in America, and that's not the way it is.

My views come from personel experience. I have live in the US for over 2 years on and off. You legal system is less permissive than you think and is far more akin to the european systems than you may notice. As to your constitutional rights, all I will say on this that you try and get these enforced if they were breached,

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by Growltigga:
Geo, if you wish to criticize lawyers, I should ask you to ensure you qualify your remarks by reference to stating that you are remarking on US attorneys, and not lawyers or advocates around the globe

I will do no such thing. Disdain for those in the legal profession is not an American opinion exclusively. But I will tone it down. My Last comment was a parting shot. I will stow my cannon.

Geo, what do you do for a living?

I am a computer geek. I am sure you will have no trouble finding much ammunition to use against me in that regards. Most of it deserved I am sure.

Oh dear, Geo, the whole point of an argument or a debate is that is comprises two mutually contradicting viewpoints that (hopefully) reaches some form of consensus through logical discussion. I am not going off on a tangent, I am simply responding or giving examples to the left-field remarks you have made.

But you can't do that, because that is what I was doing. You hit the ball, I was merely attempting to get it back to the keeper before you got safely across the crease.

I am also not prejudiced against all things American (I even own a Hammecher Schlammer cat rehydrator). I am slightly prejudiced against the national perception/world view Americans have a tendency to project to the rest of humble mortals lucky enough to share the planet with Americans but generally, I like Americans fine.

As well you should be. I too am prejudiced against that perception which too many of my countrymen hold. I will thank you to not lump me in with them.

Your comments WERE directed at soccer fans and as such, are bound to be emotive to those of us who profess to enjoy soccer. My comments on linedancers I will admit are pure self-opinion.

My comments were not only bound to be emotive, they were intended to be so. But they were not directed at your nationality, any more than your comments against linedancers were directed at all Americans. However, your misguided reaction proved my point better than I could hope to, and I thank you for it.

Yes, booing is one thing, it is poor sportsmanship, and I would point out that having Asked Jeeves/google searched and checked, no-one can remember anyone ever being beaten up in any form of mass riot/fight at a Winter Olympics for carrying wrong flags or otherwise - what point are you trying to make by what appears to be a flawed comparator

The flaw was in your understanding of my original point, not in my comparator. I compared the raucous behavior of soccer fans to the ridiculous shenanigans of linedancers as equally comparable demonstrations of their lack intellectual prowess. You misinterpreted this as a denigration of your fair country, and attempted to drag the Olympics of late hosted in my fair country into the discussion for some unclear (too me) reason. I was merely pointing out that even if we were to discuss the argument on your fallacious terms, your argument would be found wanting as the behavior of the excessivly patriotic Americans in Salt Lake was admittedly rude, but it was by no account physically abusive.

Again, your point is flawed, freedom of speech can be said to be a human condition but we are talking about how it can be manifested, and that is governed by national legal systems

This is a true enough statement, although a bit simplistic. Mine was a poor choice of words. When I said a "human condition", my meaning was that the freedom is an indisputable fact. Freedom of speech I should have said is not a condition, but is an ultimate truth. It is a goal to attain. Whether or not you agree it can be, or even should be attained is a point of debate. You can argue that one does not have an inalianble right to freedom of speech. I can argue one does, and that any government that attempts to restrict this right is unnatural. Debating that point does not change the nature of the goal itself. You cannot redefine the truth of it for if you attempt to, you render it worthless.

I get it completely unfortunately. Racism in the US is not illegal. It is not illegal in 99% of Western democracies and the Klu Klux Klan, as the British National Party or the German Neo-Nazis factions are fully entitled to demonstrate and do what they want to profess a hatred for other races. What they cannot do is incite. Of course, any recourse to violence will be slammed down under provbably every jurisictional system.
Back to our example of public policy issues such as kiddy porn, try and get a permit for tholding a debating forum or rally for that and find out if you will get it. You wont. Therefor, you are saying that your right to exercise freedom of speech is being repressed and that constitutionally, you have a right to this. Try again.

And here lies the root of your own misdirection of the debate. For the original discussion was not about kiddie porn, or even about ones right to stand on a busy street corner and defame the cherished sensibilities of a polite society. The discussion was about whether the right to maintain an objectionable website is maintained under freedom of speech. All your subsequent arguments have been taking us away from that central point, not towards it. The website in question does not seek to incite. Read it and you will see. Or don't and stay ignorant. That is your right as well.

My views come from personel experience. I have live in the US for over 2 years on and off. You legal system is less permissive than you think and is far more akin to the european systems than you may notice. As to your constitutional rights, all I will say on this that you try and get these enforced if they were breached,

I stand by my statements. Yes, you may in fact be arrested for standing up on a corner and preaching hate or espousing the virtues of kiddie porn, if a crowd forms to listen to you. But you also will be arrested for standing on the same corner and quoting loudly from the bible, or reading the constitution of the United States. Anything that draws a crowd will become an inconvienence or a hazard to daily passage will draw the notice of the local constabulary, and get you a polite suggestion to "Move along buddy." If you refuse this, they will no doubt arrest you, but not for what you say. You will be arrested for causing a disturbance. There is a HUGE difference.