What happens in 2025? / new tactics- new technologies

[MarkSheppard]

Originally Posted by Karagin

I don't see lasers or DEWs on anything for the next ten years, not until they get a better power source and battery weight issues down to the realm of reality.

This is from last year.

https://seapowermagazine.org/northro...-uss-portland/

The Laser Weapon System Demonstrator [Mark 2 MOD 0] deployed on the U.S. Navy’s amphibious platform dock ship USS Portland (LPD 27) has competed its first deployment as the Portland returned to its homeport of San Diego in March....

The 150-kilowatt LWSD is mounted on the superstructure of the Portland and is integrated with the ship’s combat information center, where a control console is installed. Northrop Grumman made the Tactical Laser Core Module of the system, while the U.S. government made the system’s energy and thermal storage modules.

....

During the deployment on the Portland, the LWSD was operated and maintained completely by Sailors. No company employees were on board to support the system. The company provided training on the system before the deployment and developed a three-volume operation and maintenance manual for Sailors to use on the ship, she said.

[MarkSheppard]

The US Army released it's Counter UAS (C-UAS) Field Manual (they now call it something else -- ADP).

https://irp.fas.org/doddir/army/atp3-01-81.pdf

ATP 3-01.81
Counter-Unmanned Aircraft System (C-UAS)
AUGUST 2023

...

Group 1 - Micro/Mini UAS (0 to 20 lbs) (RQ-11 Raven / DJI MAVIC) - Generally, hand launched commercial off-the-shelf, radio controlled platforms. They have limited ranges and small payload capabilities. They offer real time video. Operated within line of sight of the user.

Group 2 - Small Tactical (21 to 55 lbs) (SCAN EAGLE / SKY-09Ps) - Small airframes with low radar cross sections provide medium range and endurance. Launched from unimproved areas with a small number of people involved. Requires line of sight to the ground control station.

Group 3 - Tactical (56 to 1,320 lbs) (RQ-7B Shadow / Shahed) -- Similar to Group 1 and 2 UAS, requires a larger logistical footprint. Range and endurance varies significantly among platforms.

Group 4 - Strategic/Theater (Over 1,320 lbs) (MQ-1 Predator / Gray Eagle) - Relatively large systems operated at medium to high altitudes. This group has extended range and endurance capabilities. Normally requires a runway for launch and recovery.

Group 5 - Strategic (Over 1,320 lbs) (RQ-4 Global Hawk / MQ-9 Reaper) - Operates at medium to high altitudes having the greatest range, endurance, and airspeed. Requires large logistical footprint like that of manned aircraft and has a suite of optics for targeting and weaponry for engagements.

NOTE: Integrated air and missile defense (AMD) capabilities can effectively counter larger classes (groups 3, 4, and 5). AMD assets have difficulty tracking, identifying, and defeating small-unmanned aircraft systems (sUASs) (groups 1 and 2).

It also lists publicly what the Army has for defeating small-unmanned aircraft systems (sUASs):

1.) Handheld Radio Direction Finder - it tells you if a threat is operating in the common frequencies used by drones, and where it's coming from.

2.) Simple Directed Energy Weapon -- "Drone Buster" -- an oversized radar gun that jams the frequencies used by commercial drones.

3.) SMART SHOOTER -- A new weapons sight that mounts to existing rifles. When the Smart Shooter is employed, it will only fire when the sight is aligned to hit the target, this includes the required “lead” on a moving target.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by MarkSheppard

3.) SMART SHOOTER -- A new weapons sight that mounts to existing rifles. When the Smart Shooter is employed, it will only fire when the sight is aligned to hit the target, this includes the required “lead” on a moving target.

RE: 3.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5YWXrZdNpA


One comment posted was interesting

For the record, this is more or less the infantry version of an M1 Abrams' fire control suite, which was so phenomenally accurate that crews started referring to their ammunition storage as stowed kills.

[MarkSheppard]

Originally Posted by Karagin

I don't see lasers or DEWs on anything for the next ten years, not until they get a better power source and battery weight issues down to the realm of reality.

https://twitter.com/AirPowerNEW1/sta...53382781870513

Northrop Grumman recently delivered a miniaturized high-energy laser source to the DOD. The 10kW class #HEL, known as #Phantom, is about 12 cubic feet & weighs less than 200 lbs. The laser is ruggedized for field use & miniaturizing it allows for rapid placement according to NG.

20 kW is about equivalent to a 30 hp engine; easily placeable on a AFV as an APU of some sorts that can power the AFV when parked, when it's not powering the laser...

[Karagin]

Originally Posted by MarkSheppard

https://twitter.com/AirPowerNEW1/sta...53382781870513

Northrop Grumman recently delivered a miniaturized high-energy laser source to the DOD. The 10kW class #HEL, known as #Phantom, is about 12 cubic feet & weighs less than 200 lbs. The laser is ruggedized for field use & miniaturizing it allows for rapid placement according to NG.

20 kW is about equivalent to a 30 hp engine; easily placeable on a AFV as an APU of some sorts that can power the AFV when parked, when it's not powering the laser...

And what does that APU run on?

Recall again they want to go to all-electric vehicles for BOTH tactical and non-tactical vehicles, including armored tracked and wheeled vehicles. So, while it might be a small APU, what is it running on? And how long does it last? Sounds great, but if it only lasts a few hours at full power, then it's not much use. Also, how many techs are going to be attached to the unit to make sure it stays up and running at full spec?

[Karagin]

Guys they, the DOD and the MIC, have been saying since the late 90s we will have DEW or Laser on AFVs. Yet nothing has happened. In 2008 we were told hey we MIGHT get one for use on the Bradleys to counter IEDs, never happened.

Then while in Korea in 2016, we heard Oh hey, there is talk about a laser weapon being put on the Strykers, and nothing came of that. Every decade since the 80s, the MIC talks, shows off a cool demo system, the DOD throws them money, and nothing ever makes it down to the rank and file to us, so what is going to change this time?

Also, adding a separate APU to an AFV means one more thing that can break down, one more thing that needs to be taken care of. That equals more downtime overall for the AFV. All of that has to be factored into the command and control planning. Important for real life, but maybe not for a war game depending on scale and scope.

[MarkSheppard]

Originally Posted by Karagin

Every decade since the 80s, the MIC talks, shows off a cool demo system, the DOD throws them money, and nothing ever makes it down to the rank and file to us, so what is going to change this time?

1. )Big Army is now behind it with the system designated Directed Energy Maneuver-SHORAD [DE M-SHORAD].

https://www.defensenews.com/land/202...rones-at-yuma/

2.) The Ukrainian war has pushed anti-drone capabilities to the forefront. The cheapest possible weapon now -- IRON DOME style -- costs about $30,000 per interceptor. This just too much when dealing with the DJI MAVIC drone threat of $2 to $3K per drone just flying around with a camera and dropping grenades on you.

3.) Lasers are the solution to a lot of problems. While you can use a radar intended for an active protection system to track drones and probably zap them with microwaves; that's a very limited capability -- it only works on targets that need electronics continuously running to stay in the air -- lasers let you counter artillery shells, mortars and drones with a very low marginal per shot cost. You can also use the laser against ground targets -- i.e. zapping IEDs or suspected IEDs, clearing land mines, destroying UXO, etc.

Also, adding a separate APU to an AFV means one more thing that can break down, one more thing that needs to be taken care of.

The M1A2 SEPv3 Abrams upgrade has a 10 kW APU.

The M2A4 Bradley has an APU.

Big Army saw the light on APUs after thousands of hours were waste in Iraq using Abrams and other AFVs as road sentries, running their engines for hours on end to power the on board sensors needed for the sentry mission.

[Karagin]

Originally Posted by MarkSheppard

1. )Big Army is now behind it with the system designated Directed Energy Maneuver-SHORAD [DE M-SHORAD].

https://www.defensenews.com/land/202...rones-at-yuma/

2.) The Ukrainian war has pushed anti-drone capabilities to the forefront. The cheapest possible weapon now -- IRON DOME style -- costs about $30,000 per interceptor. This just too much when dealing with the DJI MAVIC drone threat of $2 to $3K per drone just flying around with a camera and dropping grenades on you.

3.) Lasers are the solution to a lot of problems. While you can use a radar intended for an active protection system to track drones and probably zap them with microwaves; that's a very limited capability -- it only works on targets that need electronics continuously running to stay in the air -- lasers let you counter artillery shells, mortars and drones with a very low marginal per shot cost. You can also use the laser against ground targets -- i.e. zapping IEDs or suspected IEDs, clearing land mines, destroying UXO, etc.

The M1A2 SEPv3 Abrams upgrade has a 10 kW APU.

The M2A4 Bradley has an APU.

Big Army saw the light on APUs after thousands of hours were waste in Iraq using Abrams and other AFVs as road sentries, running their engines for hours on end to power the on board sensors needed for the sentry mission.

APUs are one more thing to go wrong. I have seen firsthand how badly PMCS is done on stuff, seen how well it is done when it's done right. Worlds apart. Also, the DOD is being told to go all-electric by 3030/35, so what good will an APU do them when the damn batteries weigh more than the overall vehicle can carry?

Same for the laser/DEW system, the power source is still the size of a car to give it any chance to do the damage-to-kill ratio it needs to be effective. Shooting down missiles or artillery is great, but to have them on AFVs and be effective against other AFVs on the same level as chemical projectile guns, you will need a lot of power.

Big Army didn't see ****, contractors saw something and sold them something. We the soldiers pointed out issues to them all the time, sent in tons of reports and it got nothing changed. What we got told was to shut the F-UP and worry about our lanes.

Big Army has been dazzled by the MIC since the 60s with their promises of everything from caseless ammo for small arms, which we still haven't gotten, to laser rifles for the infantry. Every other year you see one or more of the contractors pushing their stuff and nothing comes of it other than a lot of money thrown at a project and little return.

Yes, the Army wants the DEW and they want rail guns and they want power armor suits and they better tanks and they want and want...but they don't get everything. And a lot of their pipedream wants are just that pipedreams from the MIC.

I have a nice collection of old COMBAT ARMS magazines with all the promised stuff the MIC was telling the DOD they would give by this point in time and that was back in the 1980s and here we are still not even seeing less than a quarter of that stuff since most of it was lies.

[MarkSheppard]

Drone tactics are evolving rapidly.

With no active Counter Drone system (C-UAS) widely deployed, everything is now a target for aerial drones:

For the IDF...drones dropping PG-7VR Tandem Charge HEAT warheads onto the thin roof armor of their Merkavas

https://twitter.com/TheDeadDistrict/...58410655285375

https://twitter.com/zhang_heqing/sta...88279315120142

This Merkava Mk3 MBT withstood the hit of a drone dropping PG-7VR munition. The grenade hit directly between two ammunition racks.

A little bit more to the left or right, and that HEAT jet would have hit stowed ammo and...

In the sudan...drones drop mortar shells

https://twitter.com/africaken1/statu...73104419082256

quadcopter drone drop a mortar bomb, on unsuspecting Sudanese rapid support forces militia, sleeping on a rooftop of a building

IDF troops have also been hit with mortar bombs -- there's video of IDF troops sheltering behind a vehicle, only for a HAMAS drone to fly over them and drop a mortar bomb on them from the first days of the current middle eastern conflict.

Abandoned tanks have to be recovered ASAP or else they're destroyed.

https://twitter.com/dronefare/status...81872923910360

Video from the
@DefenceU
showing a drone operator using a drone to remotely drop a mortar bomb in a Russian Tank through the open hatch

This BTW is like what happened on Okinawa 80~ years ago. If Shermans weren't recovered immediately -- at night, Japanese infiltrators would move up and toss explosives into them.

Drones are moving into fully autonomous mode, capable of operating with no operator.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidha...h=540426b866da

Ukrainian developers have confirmed that their drones are now carrying out autonomous strikes on Russian forces without a human operator. This is the first time such drones are known to have been used, as UN allegations about autonomous attacks in Libya in 2020 remain unproven.

The Saker Scout drones can find, identify and attack 64 different types of Russian ‘military objects’ on their own, operating in areas where radio jamming blocks communication and prevents other drones from working.

The quadcopter Saker Scout, came into service last month and can carry three kilos of bombs to a range of around 12 kilometres. Small drones operated by remote control have proved extremely effective as bombers with modified RKG-3 anti-tank grenades or RPG warheads and can destroy even heavy tanks.

Ground Drones -- UGVs are being used now to lay mines and re-mine previously cleared areas under fire:

https://euromaidanpress.com/2023/10/...an-troop-said/

On top of that, recently released footage showed operations of Ukrainian mine-laying drones, which were produced on the basis of simple radio-controlled cars. These drones are deploying anti-tank mines not only as close to Russian positions as possible but also on the trails made by the Russian tanks to ensure that if the next assault unit tries to use the safe and tested route, it will for sure get on a mine. Such a specific use allows Ukrainians to respond to new developments as they unfold and bring Russians a lot of headaches.

https://twitter.com/OSINTNic/status/1714752095952212371

Russian drone watches a Ukrainian ground drone lay anti-tank mines (English subtitles)

There are unconfirmed rumors right now that the Russians are using cargo drone ground vehicles for autonomous resupply of ground forces; but no imagery has shown up yet.

[MarkSheppard]

Originally Posted by MarkSheppard

Drone tactics are evolving rapidly.

Latest thing now. Ukrainians are using cargo drones (actually normal mortar bomb dropping drones) to ferry cargo across the Dnepr to the units that have crossed it.

https://twitter.com/CasualArtyFan/st...rc=twsrc%5Etfw

Everyone talks about drones in terms of ISR, arty, and FPVs, but what about resupply?

Ukrainians who have crossed the Dnipro are using drones to regularly “ferry” supplies across the river.

On the right is a TRV-150, used by the U.S. Marine Corps in a similar role.

Went looking up the TRV-150:

https://www.popsci.com/technology/ma...supply-drones/

The Marines are getting supersized drones for battlefield resupply
The big flying machines are designed to carry about 150 pounds and can fly at about 67 miles per hour.

BY KELSEY D. ATHERTON | PUBLISHED APR 27, 2023 4:40 PM EDT

On April 11, the Department of Defense announced that it was allocating just over $8 million for 21 new delivery drones. These flying machines, officially called the TRV-150C Tactical Resupply Unmanned Aircraft Systems, are made by Survice Engineering in partnership with Malloy Aeronautics.

The TRV-150C is a four-limbed drone that looks like a quadcopter on stilts. Its tall landing legs allow it to take off with a load of up to 150 pounds of cargo slung underneath. The drone’s four limbs each mount two rotors, making the vehicle more of an octocopter than a quadcopter.

The TRV drone family also represents the successful evolution of a long-running drone development program, one that a decade ago promised hoverbikes for humans and today is instead delivering uncrewed delivery drones.

The contract award is through the Navy and Marine Corps Small Tactical Unmanned Aircraft Systems program office, which is focused on ensuring the people doing the actual fighting on the edge of combat or action get the exact robotic assistance they need. For Marines, this idea has been put into practice and not just theorized, with an exercise involving drone resupply taking place at Quantico, Virginia, at the end of March.

The Tactical Resupply Unmanned Aircraft System (TRUAS), as the TRV-150C is referred to in use, “is designed to provide rapid and assured, highly automated aerial distribution to small units operating in contested environments; thereby enabling flexible and rapid emergency resupply, routine distribution, and a constant push and pull of material in order to ensure a constant state of supply availability,” said Master Sergeant Chris Genualdi in a release about the event. Genualdi already works in the field of airborne and air delivery, so the delivery drone became an additional tool to meet familiar problems.

Malloy Aeronautics boasts that the drone has a range of over 43 miles; in the Marines’ summary from Quantico, the drone is given a range of 9 miles for resupply missions. Both numbers can be accurate: Survice gives the unencumbered range of the TRV-150 at 45 miles, while carrying 150 pounds of cargo that range is reduced to 8 miles.

With a speed of about 67 mph and a flight process that is largely automated, the TRV-150C is a tool that can get meaningful quantities of vital supplies where they are needed, when they are needed. Malloy also boasts that drones in the TRV-150 family have batteries that can be easily swapped, allowing for greater operational tempo as the drones themselves do not have to wait for a recharge before being sent on their next mission.

These delivery drones use “waypoint navigation for mission planning, which uses programmed coordinates to direct the aircraft’s flight pattern,” the Marines said in a release, with Genualdi noting “that the simplicity of operating the TRUAS is such that a Marine with no experience with unmanned aircraft systems can be trained to operate and conduct field level maintenance on it in just five training days.”

Reducing the complexity of the drone to essentially a flying cart that can autonomously deliver gear where needed is huge. The kinds of supplies needed in battle are all straightforward—vital tools like more bullets, more meals, or even more blood and medical equipment—so attempts at life-saving can be made even if it’s unsafe for the soldiers to move towards friendly lines for more elaborate care.

Getting the drone down to just a functional delivery vehicle comes after years of work. In 2014, Malloy debuted a video of a reduced scale hoverbike designed for a human to ride on, using four rotors and a rectangular body. En route to becoming the basis for the delivery drone seen today, the hoverbike was explored by the US Army as a novel way to fly scouts around. This scout ultimately moved to become a resupply tool, which the Army tested in January 2017.

In 2020, the US Navy held a competition for a range of delivery drones at the Yuma Proving Grounds in Arizona. The entry by Malloy and Survice came in first place, and cemented the TRV series as the drones to watch for battlefield delivery. In 2021, British forces used TRV drones in an exercise, with the drones tasked with delivering blood to the wounded.

“This award represents a success story in the transition of technology from U.S. research laboratories into the hands of our warfighters,” said Mark Butkiewicz, a vice president at SURVICE Engineering, in a release. “We started with an established and proven product from Malloy Aeronautics and integrated the necessary tech to provide additional tactical functionality for the US warfighter. We then worked with research labs to conduct field experiments with warfighters to refine the use of autonomous unmanned multirotor drones to augment logistical operations at the forward most edge of the battlefield.”

The 21 drones awarded by the initial contract will provide a better start, alongside the drones already used for training, in teaching the Marines how to rely on robots doing resupply missions in combat. Genualdi expects the Marines to create a special specialty to support the use of drones, with commanders dispatching members to learn how to work alongside the drone.

The drones could also see life as exportation and rescue tools, flying through small gaps in trees, buildings, and rubble in order to get people the aid they need. In both peace and wartime uses, the drone’s merit is its ability to get cargo where it is needed without putting additional humans at risk of catching a bullet.

EDIT: I think the pace of drone development is so rapid, with everyone getting them, that I think that it may be useful to simply consolidate them (if not already done) into BLUE or RED OBAT as "Grenade Drone", "Mortar Drone", "25 kg Kamikaze Drone", "Resupply UGV", "Resupply UAS"