Warsaw Pact and TI

[Marek_Tucan]

Kuklinovsky said:
Two remarks about Warsaw Pact's visual observation abilities:

1. You seem to forget about Soviet battlefield radars at all.

They were already discussed just several posts earlier Besides these were proliferated also in Western armies so either both or none So far they are mated on Soviet side with BRM-1 recon vehicles (that use them IRL) and by FO vehicles, in he West just by late FO vehicles.

2. Lack of TI in WP armies wasn't so important because they could always illuminate battlefield by flares and flash bombs at night. In fact Mi-24s and Soviet armor were to act that way.

The same can be done by NATO (and would be employed with older non-TI units) but cannot make for TI. TI was supposed to be night sight but it is almost as a rule used even in daytime as it offers on most occassions better battle-range target acquisition than daylight branch of the system.

Moreover Central Europe isn't Persian Gulf desert. Almost all WP-NATO tank battles would be waged here at less than 2 km distance, pretty much enough for IR and LLTV sights capabilities.

Maybe "pretty much enough" for theoretical acquisition distance, but the TI equipped units would have always edge due to lesser effect of obscurants and better ability to ID what's that in sights. If you're trying to recognise something on the edge of LLTV's envelope or well within TI's envelope, it'll make a difference.
Besides the 2km distance is just an offhand average. Judging by my country, anyone trying to get to the capital or most of other major population centers who'll rely on the 2km average will find himself in big trouble as he'd enter a flat and open terrain around main rivers, controlled usually from both sides by a great overwatch positions. For example a rather minor hill not so far from my home (ca. 2 clicks) offers a great, relatively unobstructed field of view as far as to some 20km distant Prague airport

[Marek_Tucan]

PN79 said:
Czechoslovakia had 2 TI sights in development in late '80.
The first one was determined for new SP-AAA STROP

Was it really TI? All I can find indicates rather a LLTV system for STROP.

[Kuklinovsky]

Sgt. Tucan: Please stop twaddling all these rubbish!

PS. If WinSPMBT 3.0 is aimed to be sold primarly to the Western gamers its designers should deprive WP forces not only TI equipment but also laser rangefinders, radars, missiles, PGMs etc. I advise you simply to change name of Iraqi OOB to Soviet OOB and that is all!
By doing so you will make playing WinSPMBT by Western teenagers really more funny but unfortunately this game will be far from reality.

Well, all childs and gudgeons can install 3.0 patch but all non-teenagers and profies are encouraged not to upgrade game with patch 3.0 or rebuild it themselves. I think this advice can satisfy everyone!

BYE!

[Smersh]

as a side note the average range in Europe was estimated to be between and 500 and 700m.

[Marek_Tucan]

Kuklinovsky said:
Sgt. Tucan: Please stop twaddling all these rubbish!

Care to elaborate?

PS. If WinSPMBT 3.0 is aimed to be sold primarly to the Western gamers its designers should deprive WP forces not only TI equipment but also laser rangefinders, radars, missiles, PGMs etc.

Erm, who is proposing this? All this thread's about is denying EastBloc TI sights in times they didn't have them IRL, ie it's about bringing the OOBs next step to reality. What you don't like? That reality hurts? Then you are free to use older OOB's with TI-equipped Hinds and so on.

I advise you simply to change name of Iraqi OOB to Soviet OOB and that is all!
By doing so you will make playing WinSPMBT by Western teenagers really more funny but unfortunately this game will be far from reality.

Well, all childs and gudgeons can install 3.0 patch but all non-teenagers and profies are encouraged not to upgrade game with patch 3.0 or rebuild it themselves. I think this advice can satisfy everyone!

BYE!

Gee seems I struck a nerve here
So if the game so far offered some Eastern block TI in the times they couldn't have it, it means it was oriented towards EastBloc teenagers?

[Marek_Tucan]

Smersh said:
as a side note the average range in Europe was estimated to be between and 500 and 700m.

Seems too short to me
Master thesis of John Angolia, 1978
First spotting:
less than 2000 meters 70 – 80%
2000 to 3000 meters 10 – 20%
Greater than 3000 m 5 – 15%

Britain+Canada+USA, 1976:
First LOS cut-off from defensive positions
50% 1200m
40% 2800m
9% 4200m

So it seems tho be reasonable to expect the combat distance being rather between 1000-2000 meters, depending on terrain (but more enclosed terrain would make it hard for massive attacks as well as for defense as it would offer cover but OTOH it'd force the units to stick closer to roads so it won't be as popular IRL).

[Smersh]

These are expected ranges for Germany?

Lets get this striaght, definitevly. What is changing in Russian/Soviet, and Warsaw Pact OBBs in terms of sights.

Only thermal sights on Hinds? thats all?

2000m seems too far for central Europe like Germany. I can't remember where I red the figures in my previous post but I would say between 500 and 1000m would be an average range. Trees, hills and other terrian would block LOS. Most engagements would take place at these ranges, this doesn't mean that there won't be circumstances where ranges could go up to 3,000m.

[Kuklinovsky]

Maybe someone could help to explain our poor Tucan that it doesn't solely matter WP will have TI or not in the game!

The main reason is that in reality lack of TI equipment in Warsaw Pact forces would have only twobit impact on result of hypothetical war with NATO in 1980s. Unfortunately in WinSPMBT such configuration cause a huge NATO advantage over WP which practically confronts WP player with hopeless situation due to game engine's rules.

So, let's play professional WinSPMBT 2.51 tactical war game with older OOBs and teens should play WinSPMBT 3.0 arcade!

[Marek_Tucan]

Kuklinovsky said:
Maybe someone could help to explain our poor Tucan that it doesn't solely matter WP will have TI or not in the game!

So why are you fussing so much about it? Esp if you do proclaim the "professionality" below, woudln't it be "professional" to get along with OOB set that is closer to reality (by removing unrealistic equipment) and, when good old "professional" tactics don't work due to the change, just invent new ones?

The main reason is that in reality lack of TI equipment in Warsaw Pact forces would have only twobit impact on result of hypothetical war with NATO in 1980s. Unfortunately in WinSPMBT such configuration cause a huge NATO advantage over WP which practically confronts WP player with hopeless situation due to game engine's rules.

So, let's play professional WinSPMBT 2.51 tactical war game with older OOBs and teens should play WinSPMBT 3.0 arcade!

Unfortunately, as you say "professional" player of SPMBT, if he wants to be true to real life, will get WarPac more purchase points allocation. Also he'll know that since these Hinds don't have TI anymore they will be significantly cheaper meaning he'll have to face more of them. Explain, please, how "Unfortunately in WinSPMBT such configuration cause a huge NATO advantage over WP which practically confronts WP player with hopeless situation due to game engine's rules."? Esp. as in the era we're discussing not all that many Western units have TI's either - Abrams, Leo2, Bradley...and those are pretty expensive. So again, how does this put WP into hopeless situation?
I was able to achieve a neat close victory when clashing Czechoslovakian non-TI units head on with West German force of the same point value with TI Leos in PBEM and I didn't feel like being put into hopeless situation - all I needed was to employ tactics to lure Leos into good position.

Just FYI: In my OOB set the Hind TI removal took place already a long time ago, as well as cutting night sight range of most pre-TI Russian vehicles. Most of times I play for Czechoslovakia and the only change in the tactics is that I don't use Hinds for recon anymore, rather like flying tanks (which is, btw, closer to reality) and for recon I use GSR-equipped BVP-1 base BPzV.

Oh, and BTW, point out, please, who of those who prefer closing to reality by removing unrealistic TI from Hinds here is teen?

BTW2: Still confused, maybe I'll need an explanation once again... How the heck does removing of UNREALISTIC equipment in the game or its altering to REAL equipment turn the game into arcade? Or is reality an arcade?

[Kuklinovsky]

It is so many baloney in above scribbles wrote by this ridiculous sergeant I can describe it only by one word: deplorable! He seems not to understand what I am talking about.

Oh yes, he hits us with some point allocation cheating or using his "revolutionary" OOBs. Thanks! Go and play PBEMs in WinSPMBT 3.0 as a WP player with teens or even bundles from heaven, buddy. I am sure you will always win thanks to your better tactics, daisy OOBs and...maybe longer life experience!

PS. I suspect all this tinkering at WP OOBs is a result of our discussion about Soviet Army real capabilities during 1980s conducted here not so long ago. Certainly some guys weren't happy with facts described there so they decided to "improve" WinSPMBT game by strengthening "right" side (NATO) to explain every teen in US/UK that West always had overwhelming superiority over everyone on this planet exactly as over Iraq. Otherwise our teens would be in a big trouble with understanding why they can't smash Soviets so easily like US crushed Saddam in 1991. Moreover they may not be willing to buy such a "challenging" game until "right" side takes "hold water" advantage! Then maybe some desperado will agree to play WP side.

So, I wish you further "creditable", "praiseworthy", "marvellous" work and GOODBYE!