Dev Thinking on Balance?

Originally posted by Pirateiam:
I did not assume it was not tested but since it seems to be a major concern with many players I did assume that there would be an explanation of the results of the test? If the conclusion of the betas and devs is there is nothing wrong then I will except it. Have I missed the conclusion, could you lead me to the Posts?

Rome was not built in a day and neither are Developer Decisions. You'll have to wait for them to answer your question. Developers are notorious for making you wait for the patch before learning everything they have adjusted.

Since I have Beta tested many times before I do not think it is an us vs them situation. In fact it should be a team work effort - betas - devs and customers.

Then you should also know that a good % of the suggestions both beta and customers are not implemented for any number of reasons and should be able to accept the time frame they are delivered in.

[Zapmeister]

This is where personal opinion differs. My personal belief is the biggest single balance improvement that could be made would be making LI a factor in the game by cost-effectiveness and either battlefield viability or ability. As it represents an entire swath of units in each and every nation/theme.

Oh, sure. I should have said the biggest single balance improvement to pretenders, which is what we were talking about.

[Pirateiam]

Rome was not built in a day and neither are Developer Decisions. You'll have to wait for them to answer your question. Developers are notorious for making you wait for the patch before learning everything they have adjusted.

That is fair, I will wait to hear from the devs. Thank you.

[Stormbinder]

Hmm, it's a bit confusing what Zen was trying to say there (I'll skip that part) but if

Originally posted by Zen:

...I believe at the very least I said that modifying the VQ's cost to 125 and 50 would be a good change.
....

than why keep arguing? AFAICT nobody wants to nerf VQ into oblivion. For example I sugested changing paths cost from 30 to 80, which would be pretty similar additional point-cost as Zen suggested for the standart VQ MP templates. Some people, despite all their experience, (or because of it) like to argue way too much...

[ May 04, 2004, 11:45: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

[PDF]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
If every game played strictly to win will have 3 or 4 VQs, doesn't that mean that every game, 2-4 VQs will fail to win? That's not a terribly encouraging success ratio, (...)

ROFLMAO, this one has to be tagged as an epithome of bad faith !

[Jondifool]

Beeing an absolute newbie with a healthy respeckt for veterans and beta testers , (trolls and grudges as well) all my instinkt tells me to keep out of this , but I can't resist.

strong players says that vampire queen is not "to" strong. Skilled players says that vampire queen can be beaten "with skill".

But less skilled and not that strong players feels forced into take one anyway as they don't know how to really counter her. And as such they don't know if " strong and skilled " players are right

This makes for games where many vampirequeens flock around.

So my question is.
No matter if the vampirequeen is overpovered or not, does MP games loss in quality from being flooded with Vampire Queens ?

If not! what then is the problem?

If MP games loss in quality then something needs to be done! Isn't it that simple?

There is absolute no need for this beatyfull game to loose in quality or btw varity .

And as such I would like to see varity restored. I don't care at all if the VQ is overpowered or not, as long as someone just wins this argument clearly, and the consequense is either education of the newbies or a nerfing of the VQ.

Because I for one does not like to look forward to my first MP game with to many VQ pretenders.

And seen in that light I would eagerly wait for the developers respons.

---
off topic I would love to see a Van Helsing relic (unique artifackt weapon there removes imortality when hitting succesfully and offcause makes the vielder horror marked.)
or maybe a Van Helsing merc

[Scott Hebert]

For my part, I think both sides are correct. I just don't think they are looking at the same point in time.

The people who believe that the VQs are 'just fine' normally cite any number of spells that simply destroy the VQ (or any SC, for that matter). This is true. The VQ is, perhaps, the most vulnerable SC Pretender chassis in the game against other players. If a Human player cannot deal with an opposing VQ, given time and resources, that is the fault of the Human player.

However.

The major problem with the VQ IMO is that she becomes too powerful _too early_. It seems that everyone agrees that the VQ can be a force to be reckoned with by turn 5, no matter what nation you are playing with. Therefore, the VQ should be seen not so much as a SC but as the ultimate early expansion engine. This _is_ a problem. Something I've noted in Arryn's AAR, and in other Posts by other people, is that the early expansion in MP must be extremely rapid, or you will lose. No one can deny in this type of game that the faster you expand, the better you are situated for the later game. If I produce 30% more gold than my opponent when I reach him, I have a decided advantage over him, and, all else being equal, I should beat him.

The advantage of the VQ is one of increased early expansion, from my viewpoint. IMO, any change to the VQ should be done to counteract this advantage.

Bayushi Tasogare

[Gandalf Parker]

I seem to be jumping in late here...

Personally Im not that impressed by the Vampire Queen. I seem to remember similar conversations concerning Nataraja and Wyrm.

Has something changed recently? Or has a few players discovered her usefulness? Are these "many players" who are concerned actually the same players frequently?

Im in agreement that if anything is so common as to seem like an automatic choice then it should be examined for possible fixes. Likewise anything which seems like an obvious "never pick" (which is the area I tend to pay my attention to).

However, there will always be something on top and something on bottom. The only question is whether its way too much.

I suppose we could do a poll like the clams one.

[Catquiet]

Originally posted by Bayushi Tasogare:
The major problem with the VQ IMO is that she becomes too powerful _too early_. It seems that everyone agrees that the VQ can be a force to be reckoned with by turn 5, no matter what nation you are playing with. Therefore, the VQ should be seen not so much as a SC but as the ultimate early expansion engine. This _is_ a problem. Something I've noted in Arryn's AAR, and in other Posts by other people, is that the early expansion in MP must be extremely rapid, or you will lose. No one can deny in this type of game that the faster you expand, the better you are situated for the later game. If I produce 30% more gold than my opponent when I reach him, I have a decided advantage over him, and, all else being equal, I should beat him.

The advantage of the VQ is one of increased early expansion, from my viewpoint. IMO, any change to the VQ should be done to counteract this advantage.

Bayushi Tasogare

The White Bull does very well at early expansion. The problem with the VQ is that she can go into battle without equiping any items, take a large chunk out of an elite endgame army and be ready to fight on the next turn even if they manage to kill her.

[ May 04, 2004, 15:27: Message edited by: Catquiet ]

[Kristoffer O]

Hmm, that was a lot of Posts in a single day. Suppose it is a matter close to the heart of many a good player.

My current thoughts:
Clam. Overpowered particulary in large games where there are players that are not prepared for it.

Clam hoarding: boring. One shouldn't have to prevent people from doing it.

Vampire Queen. A recent complaint compared to the clam. I have not yet formed my own opinion on it. Bayushi Tasogare made a good point about the early expansion. In the late game I would say that it makes a lousy SC. It might be used as a 'super mage' in the late game, but I'm not sure if this is how it is used. Equipment on an immortal is sort of pointless, but buffing and combat magic can be used to good results.

There are counters, but it might be that they are too few or too obscure for most players. Perhaps someone should make a 'Slay the Queen' article.

One final note. Stop picking on the betas, pick on us instead. Most betas on this forum are rather new. They have had little to do with the balancing of the game. I'm the real culprit (or JK).