.com.unity Forums
  The Official e-Store of Shrapnel Games

This Month's Specials

Raging Tiger- Save $9.00
winSPMBT: Main Battle Tank- Save $6.00

   







Go Back   .com.unity Forums > Shrapnel Community > Space Empires: IV & V

View Poll Results: Am I just an idiot, or is this game hard?
No, this game is rediculously hard. 3 13.04%
Yes. you are just an idiot. 20 86.96%
Voters: 23. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old November 29th, 2004, 03:28 PM
douglas's Avatar

douglas douglas is offline
Major
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Posts: 1,152
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
douglas is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Ok...

I haven't play STM, so I can't give you much advice on it. One thing I do know is that it reduces the power of sensors and ECM so they aren't quite so important. For the stock game, though, try this:

Start a new game with high tech start. Design your favorite ship without combat sensors and ECM. Make a copy of that design with combat sensor 3, ECM 3, stealth armor 3, and scattering armor 3, taking off whatever you consider least important to make room. You can also try it without the armors. Go into the simulator and simulate a battle between equal numbers of the two designs. Observe which side wins and by how much. Maybe then you'll see what I mean.

Edit: For maximum effect, set the second design's strategy to Maximum Weapons Range. Leave the sensorless design at Optimal Firing Range, or even change it to Point Blank (max range would be suicidal for such a poorly equipped ship).

Edit2: You're not using missiles, are you? Missiles in the stock game are quite weak past the very early game, and are very easily countered by point defense cannons. They also are unaffected by sensors, so they would render this little experiment meaningless.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old November 29th, 2004, 03:35 PM
Col. Mustard's Avatar

Col. Mustard Col. Mustard is offline
Corporal
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Georgia
Posts: 65
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Col. Mustard is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Ok...

Ok. I'll do that and se what happens.
__________________
A-- Se GdY $? Fr! C- Sf* Ai++ Au M+ MpO S Ss- RO Pw? Fq- Nd Rp- G Mm+ Bb++
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old November 29th, 2004, 03:55 PM
Col. Mustard's Avatar

Col. Mustard Col. Mustard is offline
Corporal
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Georgia
Posts: 65
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Col. Mustard is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Ok...

Oh... I se. The ship with all the good stuff took hardly any damage, even though it had much less armor and weapons.... Ok, so what tech areas in standard game should I use? Like, organics? religous? should I give a research bonus?
__________________
A-- Se GdY $? Fr! C- Sf* Ai++ Au M+ MpO S Ss- RO Pw? Fq- Nd Rp- G Mm+ Bb++
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old November 29th, 2004, 04:38 PM
Arkcon's Avatar

Arkcon Arkcon is offline
Colonel
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 1,518
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Arkcon is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Ok...

Quote:
Col. Mustard said:
Thats another thing. These neural networks or whatever, and those ship training and fleet training things, I never use them. I rarely waste points on sensors either.
If you build a fleet of half a dozen battle cruisers, use the training facility to get up to 20%, retrofiting to the best sensor/ECM and other components as you discover them while training is in progress, that fleet will completely pwn anything the AI can throw at you.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old November 29th, 2004, 04:52 PM
Col. Mustard's Avatar

Col. Mustard Col. Mustard is offline
Corporal
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Georgia
Posts: 65
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Col. Mustard is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Ok...

What do you mean retrofiting? Why not just build them with the best sensors in the first place?
__________________
A-- Se GdY $? Fr! C- Sf* Ai++ Au M+ MpO S Ss- RO Pw? Fq- Nd Rp- G Mm+ Bb++
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old November 29th, 2004, 04:54 PM
douglas's Avatar

douglas douglas is offline
Major
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Posts: 1,152
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
douglas is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Ok...

You mean racial traits? Fyron wrote a pretty good article about min/maxing your empire design available here. The one thing I don't agree with in it is that lowering farming and refining aptitudes below 80% isn't usually worth the cost IMO. For racial tech traits, it largely depends on the player what you should take, but religious and crystalline are very powerful. In fact, religious is often Banned in multiplayer because it's TOO powerful.

For what techs to research in the game:
Weapons: early game, projectile weapons only; mid game, phased-energy weapons (requires physics 2) are excellent; late game, energy stream weapons (requires physics 1) are flat out the best straight damage dealing weapon in the game once everyone has phased shields. Also research point defense weapons (requires military science 1) to deal with anyone who might be using missiles or fighters. Special damage type weapons, like the shield depleter or ionic disperser, can also be useful.

Other combat tech: ship construction is very important - get at least level 4 fairly quickly for the large mount. Shields are good, but if you're going up against phased-polaron beams they'll be useless until level 6. As discussed earlier, sensors and combat support are crucial. High-level armor (requires chemistry 1) is also good, and allows level 1 cloaking (stealth armor) as an extra benefit. Advanced military science (requires military science 2) is important for training facilities, and also gives the cheapest to research cloak detection sensors.

Other military-oriented techs with no direct combat effect: better space yards tech can greatly decrease build times, but it's expensive to research. Repair is important if you plan to do a lot of retrofitting, and it's also a good idea to have at least one repair ship accompanying your fleets.

Economic techs: minerals extraction 2 is valuable, but hold off on 3 for a while and don't bother with 4 and above unless you REALLY have nothing better to do. Computers (requires industry 1) are quite valuable, and as a side benefit can provide immunity to alliegance subverters. Applied research 2 can give a nice boost, but don't get it too early. Troops (requires construction 1) can easily negate the penalty of taking 50% happiness (5 small troops with nothing but a cockpit on each planet will do it - more is better), allowing you to gain an extra 800 race points for other stuff without a significant penalty if you don't wait too long to research them.

Racial techs: If you took Deeply Religious, forget about sensors research; you have something much better - the Talisman. Get religious tech level 4 as soon as you can without handicapping yourself in other areas too severely. This will get you the religious talisman, which gives your ships a 100% hit rate regardless of other factors. If you think you'll have time to get it before getting into any serious wars, you can drop aggressiveness to 75% in race setup for lots of free race points with no penalty once you get the talisman.

If you took Crystalline, research crystalline technology to get crystalline armor. Lots of crystalline armor with just one or two good shield generators can render ships nearly invincible. Ignore crystalline weapons unless fighting another crystalline race, as the armor-skipping property of crystalline weapons will avoid triggering the special ability of crystalline armor.

If you took Organic Race, organic weapons are somewhat inferior to other choices for damage efficiency, but they are uniformly cheap in minerals and radioactives, which allows faster build times. Organic technology is also good for organic armor for a while, but it's real benefit is the population growth facilities. Get organic tech 6 and watch your population soar with Replicant Center III's adding 40M population to every planet every turn. Expensive, but well worth it eventually.

Psychic Race - good for alliegance subverters and system-wide training facilities, but not worth the cost IMO. Alliegance subverters can be countered by master computers, and regular training facilities are good enough for my purposes.

Temporal Race - Temporal weapons excel at taking down shields, but they cost a LOT of radioactives. It takes a lot of research, but temporal technology eventually gives temporal space yards, a 50% improvement over regular space yards at max tech. They take longer to build, though, and you can't upgrade from a regular space yard to a temporal one - you have to scrap and rebuild.

Edit: About retrofitting. Retrofitting has two uses: upgrading obsolete ships, and reducing build times. The first is obvious, the second is explained below:

Say you have a ship that takes two turns to build.
Standard approach: build ship in two turns, send to training center, wait, send to front lines.

Retrofitting approach: design another Version of the ship with only what you can build in one turn, and another with what you can add by retrofitting the one-turn-build design (calculate 50% cost difference). Build ship in one turn, send to training center, retrofit twice, wait a turn less and have the space yard build another in the mean time, send to front lines. With bigger ships that take 3, 4, or more turns to build, this approach can have the ship ready several turns earlier than it would be normally, and free up the space yard to build a lot more of them. It costs a little bit extra resources, though, but not a huge amount.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old November 29th, 2004, 05:02 PM
Col. Mustard's Avatar

Col. Mustard Col. Mustard is offline
Corporal
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Georgia
Posts: 65
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Col. Mustard is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Ok...

Ok, so take religous and christalline, then just add the rest of the points to what? intelligence for a research bonus, or spaceyard bonus? or maybe another advanced trait?
__________________
A-- Se GdY $? Fr! C- Sf* Ai++ Au M+ MpO S Ss- RO Pw? Fq- Nd Rp- G Mm+ Bb++
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old November 29th, 2004, 05:13 PM
Fyron's Avatar

Fyron Fyron is offline
Shrapnel Fanatic
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Southern CA, USA
Posts: 18,394
Thanks: 0
Thanked 12 Times in 10 Posts
Fyron is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: Ok...

Quote:
douglas said:
Combat sensors and ECM are CRITICALLY IMPORTANT techs. NEVER neglect them (unless you have the talisman; then you can ignore sensors, but ECM is still a must-have). Training facilities aren't as important, but they're still very powerful.
Wrong. Training facilities are just as critical. You can get a maximum of 60% from CS and ECM. You can get a maximum of 40% bonus to both from training facilities. If both races have CS III and ECM III, and only one race trained their ships and fleets, the fleets with the training will generally decimate the untrained enemy fleets, with nary a scratch (assuming other factors are relatively equal).

You can even use training to fill a gap in CS and ECM techs, assuming the enemy is not more advanced in both CS/ECM and training techs...
__________________
It's not whether you win or lose that counts: it's how much pain you inflict along the way.
--- SpaceEmpires.net --- RSS --- SEnet ModWorks --- SEIV Modding 101 Tutorial
--- Join us in the #SpaceEmpires IRC channel on the Freenode IRC network.
--- Due to restrictively low sig limits, you must visit this link to view the rest of my signature.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old November 29th, 2004, 05:14 PM
douglas's Avatar

douglas douglas is offline
Major
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Posts: 1,152
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
douglas is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Ok...

Advanced Storage, Hardy Industrialists, defensiveness (not aggressiveness - useless with the talisman), maintenance bonus, space yard bonus, research bonus, minerals bonus. Read the article I linked to. Specify a number of race points, galaxy size, and number of AI's, and I'll post what I consider to be a very good empire design when I get off work.

Edit: 40% vs 60% certainly seems less important to me. It also takes longer to get the full benefit of training than CS and ECM (ignoring research time).
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old November 29th, 2004, 05:20 PM
Fyron's Avatar

Fyron Fyron is offline
Shrapnel Fanatic
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Southern CA, USA
Posts: 18,394
Thanks: 0
Thanked 12 Times in 10 Posts
Fyron is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: Ok...

Quote:
Col. Mustard said:
Ok, so take religous and christalline, then just add the rest of the points to what? intelligence for a research bonus, or spaceyard bonus? or maybe another advanced trait?
Be aware that Crystalline tech is not very useful until you get large ships, on the order of dreadnaughts. Then, you can use 11 or more crystalline armor IIIs to make ships that are practically immune to low damage per shot weapons, and can withstand a huge amount of firepower from higher damage per shot weapons... The crystalline weapons are generally only good against armor-heavy races, such as organic and crystalline races. Normal races, not so useful against... The crystalline facilities are of dubious use.

Religious facilities, other than Nature Shrines, are mostly defensive in nature. If you are fighting your wars in your territories, you are doing something wrong to begin with... Nature Shrines can, in the long run, really pay off from increasing the planetary values of all of your planets from a single facility in each system. Fate shrines are practically useless... Talismans take a lot of research to develop. Especially in multiplayer games, you have to be very careful in the early game.

Read the min-maxing article that Douglas linked to. It will tell you. Just be aware that, especially with organics, lowering your organic and radioactive aptitude characteristics below 80 is generally worth it. Races without the Organic Manipulation trait use practically no organics, so your points are better spent being moved into minerals aptitude. Radioactives are used more, but still nowhere near the usage levels of minerals... Generally, you don't want to reduce it quite as much as organics aptitude.
__________________
It's not whether you win or lose that counts: it's how much pain you inflict along the way.
--- SpaceEmpires.net --- RSS --- SEnet ModWorks --- SEIV Modding 101 Tutorial
--- Join us in the #SpaceEmpires IRC channel on the Freenode IRC network.
--- Due to restrictively low sig limits, you must visit this link to view the rest of my signature.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:26 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©1999 - 2024, Shrapnel Games, Inc. - All Rights Reserved.