second class super combattants

[LordArioch]

If SC pretenders are as powerful as is claimed, could somebody give an example of a setup for their SC pretender? I can't seem to get one that can beat indys safely and reliably on any setting higher than 3.

[Pocus]

when we are speaking of super combattant pretenders, we are not speaking of naked pretenders you know. A single medallion of luck can be the difference between life and death.

[apoger]

>If SC pretenders are as powerful as is claimed, could somebody give an example of a setup for their SC pretender? I can't seem to get one that can beat indys safely and reliably on any setting higher than 3.

I offered this advice a few days ago, but it gets buried fast.

For a simple way to learn try;

A Manticore
astral - 6
earth - 1

Research alteration - 3, enchantment - 3

Place the Manticore in the rear.
Orders to cast: Body Ethereal, Astral Shield, Ironskin, Personal Luck, Astral Weapon.
Then attack rearmost.

Send it in alone, you don't want to rout when your army loses a morale check.

Get it rings that protect versus elements if you are attacking a cold or heat nation. Get a ring of tamed lightning if attacking an air nation.

This simple configuration will cut through 95% of conventional armies like a hot knife through butter. Use it to gobble up provinces and abuse the computer AI.

It's not invincible. But will handle a whole lot of trouble.

This will put you on the path towards understanding the potency of super combatants.

[LordArioch]

I decided to quickly throw together such a pretender with the magic levels and just run him around blindly seeing how many str 5 independent provinces he could capture. I think I got maybe 10 before he died.
The problem with that particular setup as with most SC I've made is the fatigue. Some spell that targets a unit and makes a chest wound would be really effective against pretenders without enc 0.
My manticore picked up a chest wound and that took him out. Still, I think I see that the key elements of the design are from the astral magic.
(Body Ethereal, Astral Shield, Personal Luck)
This same astral magic leaves him somewhat exposed to mind duels.
Also attack rearmost, in my experience, is probably inferior to attack archers if you suspect your opponent has archers. Attacking the rear of the enemy melee troops isn't usually as good as hitting the archers who might very well be near the mages.

But I'm not an expert so feel free to point out where I'm wrong.

[ November 03, 2003, 20:40: Message edited by: LordArioch ]

[Pocus]

just tried a Natajara with air and water magic. At turn 5 she got 4 enchanted swords.
Starting spells : quickness, then air shield & mist form on second round.
Gave her a juicy 28 def, with air shield to protect her from missiles, and mist form if a very very lucky blow bypass the defence.

Nothing else, but a ring of regen, a medallion of luck (or a ring of reinvigoration), and a nice little armor would have been cool.

I had big fun with her. A dozen indeps provinces, then a Tien Chi army of 70 units were trashed without problems.
and this is far from being optimized.

my scales were restless worhshipers, to help spread the dominions (and my Nata hit points...), chaos 1, luck 3, growth 2, dominions 7, fortress (so no loosy empire you see).

SC pretenders are powerful, and even more in doms II (less gold to coutner them with mages eg). Shall we make house rules in multiplay so that some players dont ruins the fun of others? I dont think so, as it would be a pity to have a game just released which cant be balanced from the start. This is why I advocate too that something must be done by the devs.

[ November 03, 2003, 20:55: Message edited by: Pocus ]

[apoger]

10 provinces for the manticore? That was unlucky. At indy 5 it can normally clean the map as long as you avoid lizard shamen (curse). The only other things that will stop it (from indys) is lucky hits causing afflictions or lucky spell casts that beat the magic check.

Astral magic is great but air and earth also have great spells for combatants. Don't underestimate invulnerability, mist form & mirror image. Water is great for quickness and breath of winter. Fire provides fire shield.

There are lots of interesting ways to go about it.

[ November 03, 2003, 20:53: Message edited by: apoger ]

[LordArioch]

Well my manticore wasnt too lucky then. I think it got 2 battle afflictions in that time, the first on the second fight.
Also in my attempts to use a dom2 Moloch as a powerful combatant, I noticed the Moloch routs almost immediately.
I don't know if this is a bug but I suspect the imps rout and take the Moloch with them. Although I think I remember seeing the Moloch run before the imps at one point.

The Nagas actually look like good SC bases to me. No armor/boots but the capability to get a large variety of magic. Of course spell fatigue becomes a problem when you try to cast eveything on yourself.
I'm just trying to figure out what all the concern about super pretenders is...it still seems as long as the enemy keeps from routing for a little while the pretender gets enough spell and attack fatigue to go over 100 and then dies almost immediately.

[ywl]

Originally posted by LordArioch:
If SC pretenders are as powerful as is claimed, could somebody give an example of a setup for their SC pretender? I can't seem to get one that can beat indys safely and reliably on any setting higher than 3.

My recent favorite is Ulm with Prince of Death. No extra magic is required but you might want to raise his death to around 6 with your leftover points from scales.

Go for Construction 2 and then forge your PoD the Boots of Behemoth, Black Steel Full Plate, Black Steel Helmet and the Lead Shield. His protection would be above 30 and basically untouchable. As an undead, he won't even get fatique from melee. So, he can trample several units per turn continuously, while keep scaring them away with his >fear+15 aura!

But to be safe, put him at the back and use the command queue "Hold", "Hold", "Attack Raremost". He can sweep most indies all by himself. He's still expensive, so use them with a certain caution. Probably one of the cheapest SCs you can get.

Some other alternatives are to use dragons. Also put them at the back and use the same command queue as above. They aren't as tough but cheap enough. All the Dragons have additional spells to help - Green has Personal Regeneration; Red has Fire Shield; Blue has Quickness and Breath of Winter.

The possibiities are limitless.

BTW, welcome to the game .

[ywl]

Originally posted by LordArioch:


>snipped<

Also in my attempts to use a dom2 Moloch as a powerful combatant, I noticed the Moloch routs almost immediately.
I don't know if this is a bug but I suspect the imps rout and take the Moloch with them. Although I think I remember seeing the Moloch run before the imps at one point.

The Nagas actually look like good SC bases to me. No armor/boots but the capability to get a large variety of magic. Of course spell fatigue becomes a problem when you try to cast eveything on yourself.
I'm just trying to figure out what all the concern about super pretenders is...it still seems as long as the enemy keeps from routing for a little while the pretender gets enough spell and attack fatigue to go over 100 and then dies almost immediately.

Moloch is not as good as he used to be . If a SC attack with any troops, when all the troops rout, he routs. So, it's better to send him attack alone - a risk you have to take. In my few test, if the imps rout, he didn't (and he shouldn't or it'll be a bug making him a lousy pretender). But I haven't tested very thoroughly.

Nagas, in theory could be versatile mages but they were never popular in Dom 1. It's probably because they're too expensive. Not sure whether it will change when people figure out new possibilities with them in Dom 2.

Fatique is always an issue for super-combatants. One their fatique is over 100, they're unconscious. I don't know the exact mechanics, but you'll be hit automatically and other things. You need to have revigoration items or spells (Summon Earth Power, Power of Gaia, etc) for them. Or use creatures with 0 encumbance - plenty around .

[Chris Byler]

Originally posted by LordArioch:
I decided to quickly throw together such a pretender with the magic levels and just run him around blindly seeing how many str 5 independent provinces he could capture. I think I got maybe 10 before he died.
The problem with that particular setup as with most SC I've made is the fatigue. Some spell that targets a unit and makes a chest wound would be really effective against pretenders without enc 0.
My manticore picked up a chest wound and that took him out. Still, I think I see that the key elements of the design are from the astral magic.
(Body Ethereal, Astral Shield, Personal Luck)
This same astral magic leaves him somewhat exposed to mind duels.

That's probably why he suggested Astral 5. It will take a while for an Astral 5 to lose a magic duel.

Something with high MR and a magic weapon (preferably armor piercing or negating) would probably do better.

Is there a non-personal Version of Astral Weapon?

One thing that I think would help fight supercombatants (and seasonals and elementals if they are still a problem) would be a variety of weapon enchanting spells that affect a squad of units. I think there is already a Weapons of Sharpness (weapons become AP and magic) but there should also be:
Flaming Weapons (like the fire 9 blessing)
Frozen Weapons (similar to flaming, but the extra damage is cold instead of heat)
Shock Weapons (adds 3-4 armor negating lightning damage)
Poisoned Weapons (adds normal poison)
Astral Weapons (significantly more expensive and requires higher magic levels than the above; makes affected weapons armor negating).
and even
Deadly Weapons (adds Decay effect like Bane Blades - this should maybe cost even more than Astral Weapons).

A squad of elite troops (wardens, emerald guards, vanir, etc) with one of these could hurt some supercombatants. Also, all of these enchantments would cause the affected weapons to become magic (and thus ignore etherealness) - even if the target is immune to the extra effect (elements, poison, Decay). Etherealness is one of the biggest protections supercombatants have against ordinary troops - a flat 75% miss chance that stacks with all other defenses.

The earth Version should be the cheapest and lowest research, so earth still has an advantage in this area (in addition to the combo with Strength of Giants).

As for things that already exist in Dom II...

The blood magic item Flesh Eater always causes a chest wound to anything it hits. It only costs 5 blood slaves and requires blood 1, so any nation that can get random picks can get some.

It might be Construction 6 though, I don't remember. Also, I don't know if it has to do nonzero damage to cause a chest wound, or if it just has to hit.


On the other hand, I think if you are having problems with fatigue on your SC they are not all that super. Serious supercombatants (if they are not naturally immune to fatigue) should have enough reinvigoration (either directly or through life drain) to keep their fatigue down. Unless they are being repeatedly mind bLasted of course.