Balancing Fighters, Missiles and PDC in the late game - Page 4

Grand Lord Vito · #31 November 5th, 2003, 01:05 PM

Oleg how do we really know that ONE Fire Control really works for ALL Weapons Platforms on the planet not just the one its on after that you cant fit much else?

It looks just like a big Combat Sensor or do all Combat Sensors on the planet add up or does it just take the largest Combat sensor value like a ship.

IMHO I do not see much differnce to the other WP

[ November 05, 2003, 11:13: Message edited by: Grand Lord Vito ]

oleg · #32 November 5th, 2003, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Grand Lord Vito:

Oleg how do we really know that ONE Fire Control really works for ALL Weapons Platforms on the planet not just the one its on after that you cant fit much else?

It looks just like a big Combat Sensor or do all Combat Sensors on the planet add up or does it just take the largest Combat sensor value like a ship.

IMHO I do not see much differnce to the other WP

I am 100% sure FCC works for all weapon platforms on the planet - I usually build just one Comand Center WP with fire control, latest sensors, WP comand centers (from military science - expensive but with to-hit bonus), no weapons

and a LOT of armor and shields to be sure it will Last whole battle. Other platforms have computer center, some armor and weapons.
This Comand Center WP indeed directs the fire of all WP on the planet.

(multiple sensors from different platforms do not add up, planet is treated as a single "ship")

Grand Lord Vito · #33 November 5th, 2003, 01:42 PM

Oleg if so how does it work in se4 terms?

"It looks just like a big Combat Sensor or do all Combat Sensors on the planet add up or does the whole PLANET just take the largest Combat sensor value like a ship."

[ November 05, 2003, 11:44: Message edited by: Grand Lord Vito ]

Fyron · #34 November 5th, 2003, 04:13 PM

It is a well documented fact that all untis in a stack recieve the same combat sensor and ECM bonuses from components on just a single unit. It will be the best of the bonuses in the stack. This applies to WPs, satellites, and fighters. Probably drones and mines as well, but those either don't stack or don't appear on combat maps.

Loser · #35 November 5th, 2003, 04:20 PM

It should be noted that Fighters only launch, and therefore only stack, like with like. So one Fighter with CS and ECM will not mean all Fighters get the bonus, it will mean one Fighter in a doomed little group all by himself. I believe the same is true for Drones.

This effect really shines on the Satellites, Troops, and Weapon Platforms.

Fyron · #36 November 5th, 2003, 04:38 PM

I thought it launched fighters in the order you loaded them? Isn't it possible to load them so that you get 1 ECM/CS and 4 normal in each stack? At least until they start dying, that is. The next combat they will be all out of order.

I am pretty sure it is possible, just not very useful in practice.

Chronon · #37 November 5th, 2003, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Note: I have been talking about MP use mostly here. The AI is hardly salvageable to ever provide much of a challenge to most players, unless you cheat and give them a lot of special stuff only they can use...

Yes, I plan on doing just that (Civ AI's cheat like bandits, too

)

Thanks PvK for the very good list of ways to tweak the Proportions fighters. I will probably do most of them. I may also add point defense missiles that can target fighters, and which will have enough firepower to knock one out if it hits.

Because I'd like to play this mod on PBW with other humans, I'll probably take an intermediate approach to things like research rates and population growth. I think Proportions is much more realistic than stock SE4, but for PBW I think I'll have to sacrifice realism for speed of play. We don't want would-be Rulers of the Universe getting bored, do we?

PvK · #38 November 5th, 2003, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
I thought it launched fighters in the order you loaded them? Isn't it possible to load them so that you get 1 ECM/CS and 4 normal in each stack? At least until they start dying, that is. The next combat they will be all out of order. I am pretty sure it is possible, just not very useful in practice.

You are right. I have done this. You just have to pay attention to your launch capacity and your orders for fighter group size. Or, to launch before the battle - you can have a 100-fighter group with one EW fighter giving its bonuses to the entire stack. It would really be nice if Aaron would implement the suggestion to break up fighter hordes during tactical combat, in the next patch.

PvK

Fyron · #39 November 5th, 2003, 07:58 PM

Chronon, AIC has most of those tweaks done to Proportions fighters already. Check it out too.

PvK · #40 November 5th, 2003, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Grand Lord Vito:

quote:
Originally posted by PvK:
[QB] ...
* Proportions makes fighters quite powerful
* Proportions fighters are powerful early in the tech tree, compared to other techs
* SE4 zero-maintenance units means that stockpiling fighters can lead to some very large and therefore powerful (particularly on defense) fighter stacks.

What does zero-maintenance units have to do with the Fighters being out of proprortion?

As I thought I explained a couple of times, it means that you can stockpile them during peacetime more efficiently than you can with ships. In such situations, they can become quite powerful in situations where you don't need ships to move them around (i.e., on defense).

So, making them less powerful against ships, more expensive, and more prone to become obsolete over time, are ways to try to compensate.

Quote:

quote:

Later-tech Proportions stuff, and mid-tech bases and planets, can deal with fighters pretty well, though. And, fighters aren't as powerful as they are in say, real-world naval combat from World War 2 onwards.

Not true.

Is so.

Quote:

quote:

1) Reduce the damage done by the light fighter weapons by about half, down to 1 or 2 points per weapon, and or increase their size, so they don't do much damage at all. (or, remove their ability to target anything but fighters)

2) Make fighter weapons which heavy weapons for hitting ships, unable to target fighters.

3) Remove fighter shields, or make them only about as good as fighter armor, or a little better.

4) Consider removing or reducing the structure value of fighter until they have about half the damage resistance they currently do (without shields).

5) Consider making fighter components cost more.

6) Consider making fighters start out with somewhat lower offense and defensive bonuses, but add more fighter ECM and combat sensors at higher research levels, so early fighters aren't so hard to kill, and later fighters make stockpiles of earlier fighters relatively obsolete.

Most of this sounds like the way fighters are now with the AIC Fighter Mod by JLS and OLEG

Yes, well this has all been discussed before, so I'm glad JLC has tried such things. I haven't had time to keep up with all the stuff he's been doing in AIC. Starting with AIC's Versions may be a good idea, or even talking with JLS and making a mod based on AIC. AIC has the advantage of making a major effort to get the AI to be challenging to play against. As has been pointed out, this generally requires giving the AI advantages to compensate for its weaknesses, and JLS has been refining that concept for a long time.

PvK

[ November 05, 2003, 18:05: Message edited by: PvK ]