OT: Malazan Book of the Fallen

[HoneyBadger]

I wouldn't say so much in terms of an upgrade in sheer unsubtle power, as a shift in the general "design" of dragons. The dragons in the game aren't extremely weak, they're just somewhat bland. They don't necessarily need more hit points-we must keep balance in mind-they just could use a bigger dose of character and chaos.

Dragons, as I mentioned, are protean. They should be somewhat chaotic in terms of their capabilities and appearance. Creating a dragon should be viewed in the same terms as creating a modern piece of military hardware. Is it a tank? a battleship? a submarine? a jet fighter? It's important that it not be just the same "big flying lizard with wings that breathes fire". It may not have wings, and it may not breathe fire. Once you've got it's physical abilities down, then consider the mind. The dragon will have goals, and may be highly intelligent, or highly stupid, but should possess a personality. Finally, consider it's reputation-remember, a dragon is a natural disaster waiting to happen, and it can wait a long, long time, and because of that, people are going to fear it, and do their best to learn about it, and tell stories about it, so a good dragon is going to have a lot of background to it-ofcourse, not everything is going to be known, such is the nature of the beast.

Personally, I'd really like to see dragons in the game tied directly to the environment and forces in nature-as opposed to the elements, which are already well represented.

Earthquake dragons, wildfire dragons, flood dragons, typhoon dragons, lightning dragons, volcanic dragons, sandstorm dragons, plague dragons, and avalanche dragons would all be interesting and different to see in the game.

Now that I think about it-to tie in the human shapeshifting ability they currently have, perhaps each of these types of dragons would be-drawing somewhat from Chinese myth-divine representatives in charge of governing and regulating their respective disaster, capable of taking on humanoid form to fulfill their beurocratic duties, with the dragon form itself being as much a physical embodiment of the power and station they directly control. In this way, again the dragon wouldn't *necessarily* be evil, but would also be more capable of human personality, and all the nuances of evil and danger contained therein-and it allows the dragon "form" itself to become that much more elaborate, because it's not anything that was evolved to suit the demands of Nature, it's instead an avatar of Nature at her deadliest. Our imaginations, in this way, are allowed to run wild.

[Agema]

Incidentally, for those of you in the UK who are fans of Steven Erikson, he's doing a tour with readings and Q&As across the country around the end of June - early July. I think they might all be in Waterstones branches if you check there.

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Dragons have never been completely uber. Bear in mind an old-age Beowulf with support from one minion polished off a dragon, as did St. George on his lonesome. Dragons could tear up a village with untrained pitchfork-wielding peasants easily enough, but could be readily defeated by a human hero with plenty of resolve. Even in fantasy starting at Tolkein, dragons (or balrogs) were very powerful but defeatable by sometimes even modest heroes. Smaug only ran riot so much because he'd eaten so many jewels for armour, and even then carelessly forgetting to cover one of his major organs. (With that sort of tactical aptitude, he'd be mincemeat playing Dominions.)

[hunt11]

would this work as a way to bring power back to dragons? make the ones who we can currently use as pretenders as summons and add some skills that differ to the different dragon types, and make the ones we can use as pretenders cost more points, but be 5 times better in terms of magic, stats, and special abilities,

[Kristoffer O]

If they cost more points they will have less magic, as magic costs points.

[thejeff]

Dragons are the only pretenders that have to pay for magic they can't use. All the other monster type pretenders have full access to their paths in battle, Dragons either have to start as a vulnerable human and shift or not have full use of the magic they paid for. Including, I'd assume, the side benefits of high paths: attack bonus and the like.

On the other hand it's a neat ability and it distinguishes them. And does have the advantage of full slots for ritual casting and forging.

Overall, it's a disadvantage. Maybe instead of losing 2 levels, they could lose 1 in dragon form and gain one in human from the actual purchased value?

[MaxWilson]

Kristoffer O said:
If they cost more points they will have less magic, as magic costs points.

Is there a method, by the way, for determining how much pretender chassises pay for their starting magic paths? It's always cheaper to buy S10E3 for an Oracle than a Cyclops, for instance, and so it's not clear how much the Oracle's starting S3 actually "costs."

-Max

[MaxWilson]

thejeff said:
Overall, it's a disadvantage. Maybe instead of losing 2 levels, they could lose 1 in dragon form and gain one in human from the actual purchased value?

Note that this is currently moddable with the #magicboost command.

-Max

[HoneyBadger]

I don't think dragons should be ultra ultra uber, either, but the most powerful of them should definitely be some of the most powerful units in the game.

A determined human can kill anything-we've defeated cave bears, Hitler, polio, neanderthals, the rocky mountain locust, and dying before we're 30...and dragons should have vulnerabilities, but they should be vulnerable like a tank or a jet fighter is vulnerable.

Kristoffer, considering that dragons love treasure so much, would there be a way that, through empowerment, they could automatically shapechange? Like say a red dragon that, once it's been empowered to fire 6, for instance, turns into a stronger unit? That way, instead of over time, they could become stronger at a significant cost of gems.

[Stryke11]

While thier length is intimidating, I can honestly say these are the best epic fantasy books I have ever read. Typically people praise them for their grittiness, and fantasy-realism (if that even makes sense) but I rather find that they are exceptional in the way they flow and the characterizations.

No one who enjoys adventure can say that the Chain of Dogs wasn't just awesome and heartrending at the same time. the siege of Capustan was shocking but so well portrayed it really seemed like you were there, and all hope was lost.

My one complaint is an echo of what was stated earlier, that everyone and their brother is immortal, and the power balance is a bit screwy. Karsa is one tough mother, sure, but if he can be captured by humans and for a short time enslaved, then I'm not buying that he can also take down gods. Some uber characters are justified in terms of the story, like Anomander Rake, but not all of them. Plus the fact that every tribe and group of people skulking around in a wasteland has their own super powerful gods and an entire race of people (the Wickans) have the potential for immortality. SPOILERS: Chain of Dogs would have meant even more if Coltaine actually died, like, for real. It was moving that he took up so many ravens or whatnot to carry his soul, but that was just unnecessary.

Still, from a lyrical standpoint, nothing compares. And unlike other "epic" fantasy writers, I think Erikson is actually going to finish what he started, and in a timely manner.

[MaxWilson]

Hmmm. What does it mean to die "for real" in the Malazan universe? To put it another way, if I believe in an afterlife, does that mean that I can't find joy and sorrow when a man gives his life for his friends?

I think the Wickans are emphatically NOT exceptional in the Malazan universe. Hood is exceptional in that he actually collects dead souls and does something with them, which I think is quite decent of him.

-Max