Merkava.

[Marek_Tucan]

The described 1973 scene is a bit of old PR trick The soldiers were fully armed, not fully kitted, and the same with Merkava used.
Otherwise IDF would have to either employ exceptionally small soldiers, or warp time and space, or would not fight a long design battle around how many soldiers would fit into Namer.
Shermans were also used to transport numerous soldiers to a besieged unit on Okinawa and to evacuae he wounded, the record was IIRC something like 12 soldiers beng caried on one trip, but that does hardly make the Sherman an APC - and it certainly wasn't combat-capable in such a configuration.

[Imp]

While the Merk is being looked at & I have no idea what they represent but assume 60 vision is radar etc. Should therefore only the lead tank in the company have 60 vision as its equiped with the sensor tower.

Kevin no one is I think disputing it can carry soldiers & the fuel tank post was sort of right fuel is normaly placed so it functions as additional armour as its fairly effective esp vs HEAT.
The question is if the tank can operate effectivly with troops on board & if it is used that way or just as a convienent way to ferry troops in the rear area.

If ginger tanker does not come back might try asking on israeli defence forums & see if anybodys willing to divulge anything.

[DRG]

.......OR your all could take this to tanknet were there ARE people who know WTF they are talking about.
Let me know what the result is before the next release.

I have been quite willing to add infanrty carry capabilities to this tank since the first reports came back that it could carry combat troops and IMHO it's WAY past due this "issue" was put to rest one way or the other but it's not going to happen here otherwise we wouldn't be listening to the "yes they can"- "no they can't" cyclical arguments.

Don

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Marek_Tucan

The described 1973 scene is a bit of old PR trick The soldiers were fully armed, not fully kitted, and the same with Merkava used.
Otherwise IDF would have to either employ exceptionally small soldiers, or warp time and space, or would not fight a long design battle around how many soldiers would fit into Namer.
Shermans were also used to transport numerous soldiers to a besieged unit on Okinawa and to evacuae he wounded, the record was IIRC something like 12 soldiers beng caried on one trip, but that does hardly make the Sherman an APC - and it certainly wasn't combat-capable in such a configuration.

PERSONALLY I belive they can and do carry troops. How many "typically" is the issue. I've seen photos of STUG III's with 20 + troops on top... that's doesn't mean we allow that carry capacity in the game and just becasue 12 troops are shown spilling out...... well...... I saw a guy make a train disapear on AGT.... so what? Pick the 12 smallest guys in green you can find and presto.... 12 guys appear. Four to eight I could see "typically" but it would be nice to hear what the real answer is from a source that isn't hopelessly amaturish or potentially Israeli propaganda.

Don

[kevineduguay1]

Marek_Tucan

The Sherman carried most of those troops on the OUTSIDE of the vehicle. With all those bodies strewn across the hull the tanks weapons would have been useless.
The Merk in Question went into a combat zone under fire. Provided it's own fire support while recovering 13 wounded that were placed INSIDE the tank. It then covered it's own retreat with fire from its own weapons. Tight fit? Yes! Impossible? No!

Also, every video I have seen of troops leaving the rear hatch of the Merkava in training or combat situations are in "full kit" including backpack and other gear.

Imp,

Durring Israels last incursion into Lebanon the use of ANY APC was almost impossible because of the large amount of RPG and ATGM possesed by Hesbola. These light vehicles were only used as taxi cabs to deploy infantry well away from the front lines unless the area was deemed clear of enemy anti-tank weapons. In more than one site examples can be found showing that the Merkava tank was used as a heavy APC to transport full armed and equipped soldiers to the battle areas of the combat zone. As many as 10 troops were stuffed into these vehicles and they carried 50 rounds of 120mm Ammo.
I realy don't think for one second that they would send tanks with infantry inside but carry little or no ammo to support them once deployed. that would be just stupid.

Please read my last post again.

The MkIs and IIs could carry 92 rounds of 105mm ammo, or 62 rounds of 105mm ammo and up to 10 fully equipped combat troops.

The rear compartment of all Merkavas have 8 seats in the back. The two extra soldiers are carried in the space where the stretcher cases would be carried between the two rovs of seats. Their troops are equiped with Knee pads and other protective gear just like many other Nations troops are.

Is it a comfortable ride? Not likely. But its not only possible, it was done.

There is on version of the Merk that has a lower Main Gun ammo loadout. Its the "Tankbulance". This version looks just like anyother Merkava tank in current production but the rear troop compartment has been modified to carry...
2-3 stretcher cases
a 3 man medical team ( MD and 2 assistants)
and an operating theater with a full compliment of life support equipment.
With all that and it can still fight as a MBT if it has to.

I would post the pics to prove my point but I keep gettin the Error message because the files are to big. Most are on the site I posted on Page 1. Take your time, find the pics and video links and watch them. It will open your eyes.

[kevineduguay1]

DRG,

With 10 troops even the site says they are packed in very tight. I would be more than happy with a 8 troop capacity. Like I said before, it has 8 seats in the back.

Heavy weapons would have to be restricted. No TOW teams for example.

[Marek_Tucan]

Re. Sherman, nope, in the inside, because the cut-off unit was behind a wide open valley drenched in MG and mortar fire. Entry and exit via escape hatch.
Same method used for CASEVAC and even for ammo resupply.
That's why did I mention it.
There was a pic of UAZ utility vehicle loaded with at least 13 soldiers. Same for a story about a British medical NCO being allowed by German tank commander only one trip to his positions to collect British wounded. Sure, in emergency (or just for the heck of it) you can squeeze people very tightly. But then I would doubt the MKerk carrying 13 wounded was combat-capable in such situation. Providing fire from its own weapons? Sure, why not, Comamnder and Loader have their hatches and machineguns, plus possibly (depending on access to it) the 60mm mortar.
Main gun? Sorry, but at best in dire emergency. If nothing elce, hot case or case stub is really NOT healthy and can potentially make more mess than any RPG hit.

Just a simple question: If Merkava is able to carry "10 fully armed and equipped soldiers" in the inside without any hindrance to its capability...
Why the heck took design of Namer so much time and why the heck was there a problem to fit even one fully kitted squad? In comparison to Merk, if Merk was able to fit 10 "without problems", then Namer should be able to carry how many. given the absence of turret? 15? 16? So there should be no problems in fitting 10 in there, right? But there are.

You just need to realise, that "emergency use" can be hardly made a rule. Sure, for example a Czech Liberator wa able to return home at night in storm over North sea with just two engines running doe 3 hours on emergency power (allowed for 15 minutes only). Does that mean all Liberators were able to run all time on WEP? A "record-breaking" IDF Centurion survived ca. 40 penetrating and non-penetrating hits from RPGs and ATGMs in 1973, does that mean all Centurions should be totally impervious to anything but tactical nuke? another Cent was able to rescue crew from another tank, does that mean it should be given a 4 troops internal carry capacity?

[kevineduguay1]

"A single double piece vertical
rear compartment door was incorporated to allow for easy entry, exit and reloading of ammo while under fire. At times the rear area is used for armor
personnel carrier for 8 combat troops. 10 is possible and 3 man command post, 3 station med-evac with medical team is also an option among some of
the popular configurations." Lt. Amos

1982 Lebanon,
BELOW MERKAVA COMBAT TEAM MEMBER BEING DEPLOYED

These troops were carried into battle by Merks in squads of 6, 8 and even 10 men."

" Now...
there IS most surely a rear compartment area and it Does Surely exist as can be seen here.
Special Ops will deploy 7 plus squad leader while 10 combat troops were carried in 1978
during 1st public roll out and recently the Mark 4's during 2006 conflict. A Medical team is
now fielded in ten special unmarked Tankbulances that are getting the Trophy APS installed.
They have 1 doc plus 2 orderly's with 3 casualty stations. A Forward Command Post with 5
specialist depending we're talking about a company, brigade or battalion Merkava. See below.
1000's of IDF troops have ridden inside Merkava troop compartments over the past 30 years.
It's true that all the main gun 120mm ammo makes for one very cramped riding condition but,
I never saw anyone complaining of too much ammo! "

[kevineduguay1]

Even the model makers know about the troop compartment....

"Below model is shown with rear hatch double door closed but CAN, with some
difficulty be displayed with hatch open & interior layout complete for 8 troops"

[DRG]

Look.. if you are going "quote" a source PROVIDE THE LINK TO IT

OK ?

Don