Starting tactics

[Roanon]

Again, in your experience. It *might* be true, but I would never be so self-confident about strategies tested only against other strategies that I could think of. Game designers usually do that kind of thinking, and are regulary surprised when a mass of players finds out totally new ways and show them how to play their own game properly

[se5a]

yea, just look how unbalanced the empire creation in the unmoded seiv is...
I hope V will be better balanced.

[rextorres]

Originally posted by Roanon:
Again, in your experience. It *might* be true, but I would never be so self-confident about strategies tested only against other strategies that I could think of. Game designers usually do that kind of thinking, and are regulary surprised when a mass of players finds out totally new ways and show them how to play their own game properly

Theoretically your right there may be the killer starting strategy that may never have occurred to me or someone on the board is keeping a secret to use against us unsuspecting players.

Still, there are certain things you must do at the start of a game to win. You may have a different variation - heck I have different variations - depending on the circumstances. For the most part, though, if you stray too far from the "must dos" - bottom line is you're going to lose.

This I might add is based on playing humans. As far as the AI is concerned I never play it so I have no comment about that.

[ November 28, 2003, 21:41: Message edited by: rextorres ]

[Fyron]

Originally posted by Karibu:
I disagree this with you Fyron. I always build SY first on the big planet at the beginning. Why? In first 40 turns you don't have mineral/rad shortage so you can make SY and build colonyships in big planets during that period. When you are running low on resources, start making mines, etc. in there. Also SY helps if you need to get WP:s or satellites fast when enemy is on sight.

I know that building SY on every planet slows you a little bit down, but only temporarily. After 5 or 6 colonized planets, you have superior manufacturing base compared to any player who has not made SY's on every planet. The bad point in this is, that your science and resource production suffers because of this at first 30 or 40 turns, but you will catch others by turn 50...70 because you crabbed many planets by making so many colonyships with your many spaceyards.

Furthermore, I usually colonize only nearest planet in my home system and breathables if there is any (1-3 colonized planets before leaving system). Then I go and colonize 1 or 2 planets in avery system I encounter to spread as much as possible and lay claim into those systems.

Obviously you have never min-maxed an empire...

[Fyron]

Originally posted by primitive:

quote:

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Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:

quote:

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Sure you can, only my way is faster

Not really.

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You are more stubborn than an old grumbler thrice your age.

Do the math, its no contest. Every BSY built during the first 10 turns will set you back compared to the “fastest” model. You will have a more compact and secure empire, I’ll give you that. But it will be significantly smaller at turn 30 - 40.

If you don’t want to do the math, I’ll be happy to challenge you (or anyone else believing in the BSY model) to an empire building contest.

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Umm... who said anything about a small or compact empire? The BSYs build more colony ships that spread out in the same way you were describing...

[Fyron]

I think some people are under the mistaken impression that I was saying not to build a SY on big breatheables... that is not the case at all. I simply was explaining the strategy someone else had mentioned, which includes building the SY on those planets AFTER the miners/researchers. If you don't need the SY right away (you have enough built on other planets already), then building it first is a waste of potential production.

[primitive]

Okay, this is going to be fun

Spoon.
I am familiar with the Base Ship Yard Model (BSY-M for short) you describe, but usually chooses the "Moon Ship Yard Model" (MSY-M) instead.

Main reason: For the BSY-M to be anything close to as effective as the MSY-M you have to "waste" 1000 points on Hardy Industrialist (HI). The MSY-M can be done only with 20 % SY bonus (you wll need to do some retrobuilding or use some early research points to get prop II or III). With the stuff I really need (Advanced storage, maintanance reduction + SY, attack-, defence-, production and research bonuses) there is only so many points left. I usually opt to put my Last points in Propulsion Expert insted of HI.

In my original post I claimed the MSY-M was better after turn 14-15. I done some more calculating, and without HI its turn 12-13, with HI break even will be at turn 17-18.

To calculate the MSY model I have used the first, third, fifth and seventh Colonizer from HW as special "Moon SY colonizers" using 2 turns of traveltime to the moons. These are not included in the colonizer sum. I even remembered to use 11 turns of EB

BSY-Model:
By turn 18, the BSY model player has 4 BSY's and he has built 19th colonizer (or 5 and 17). All but 1 (or 2) of his BSYs are now in slow mode and he has almost no building capacity from his initial investment.

MSY-Model:
By turn 18, I have 4 Moon SYs and I have produced 21 colonizer, I get 4 more every second turn from my Moon SYs. I also don't have to pay maintanance for my SYs so my initial slightly higher investment will be payed back in a few more turns.

The BSY-M player had a few extra early colonizers (on the 3rd, 5th and 2 on the 7th turn) which either could have been used for expanding farther than the MSY-M player would, or to be 2-3 turns earlier in colonizing many of the ordinary (4 - 6 slots) planets nearby. He may have a few SYs on these by turn 15 - 20 but chances are (At least it is when I play this way) that he are producing significantly more resources as this point than he can use.

Running the MSY model is a fine balancing act when it come to resources: Done properly I will never run empty and I will never have an excess. I also have enough to use many of those first colonizers on land grab missions, so while I build fewer the first 10 turns, I will not settle less systems than I would running the BSY model. I will however stretch myself thinner, so I always make sure I get those minefields up early.

These are extreeme examples and as Rex says (he is the King after all ); Different circumstances requires different solutions.

Originally posted by spoon:

quote:

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Originally posted by primitive:

I’ll be happy to challenge you (or anyone else believing in the BSY model) to an empire building contest.

How much money do you want to put on it?

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Money is not an issue, I'll do this for the soul of your firstborn

[Fyron]

That is assuming you make all of the BSYs do emergency build and that you aren't building SYs on the new planets...

[ November 29, 2003, 00:16: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[spoon]

Originally posted by primitive:
Okay, this is going to be fun

I think what you are failing to take into account is that the BSY-M is free to colonize low-quality worlds and build shipyards there just like you are doing in the MSY-M. So anything you can do with MSY-M, you can also accomplish with the BSY-M, albeit 1-2 turns later, which, I argue, is insignificant.

Given that you don't even take HI, I'd wager that my empire will likely be double the size of yours by the midgame, and that the majority of your population would be taking anti-depressants to cope with the knowledge that they will soon be ingested by the ravenous Worms of Woe.

[primitive]

Spoon and Fyron.
No I did not forget that "ordinary" colonies also makes spaceyards. The model just compare the output of the Base spaceyards with the "Moon space yards". I too build a lot of ordinary planet spaceyards. I have a goal of 10 (including the moons) by turn 20, but I will usually be little behind

Fyron:
Not using EB for the BSY's only make the BSY-model worse. If you don't want to calculate yourself, send me your setup and I will do the calculations for you

Originally posted by spoon:
Given that you don't even take HI, I'd wager that my empire will likely be double the size of yours by the midgame, and that the majority of your population would be taking anti-depressants to cope with the knowledge that they will soon be ingested by the ravenous Worms of Woe.

Hmmmm,
The Horde on anti-depressants. Not as long as there are fights to be fought, drinks to be drunk, and virgins to unvirginate (is that a word ?) .

How are we going to do this ?
A fixed map with only one player and then least number of turns to some goal ?
Score or number of planets are not a viable measuremnt of empire strength. Would fastest empire to make a certain size fleet with some spesific components on board be a better solution ?