Finnish OOB 6.0

[dmnt]

Finnish OOB 6.0

First of all, thanks for the big change between 5.5 -> 6.0 in Finnish OOB. Here are some things I found comparing the OOB to FDF pages and other resources found.

Unit 015 T-55MS
~70 T-55s were upgraded to T-55M in 1989-1992
Instead of active IR they used to equip it seems that a Swedish, passive IR camera was installed in replacement. Also fire control system is valued higher than in T-72 (FC 20 in OOB) of the same era.
Suggestion: possibly replace vision 30 with vision 40 and fire control to 25. I couldn't find another source to back this up, so it's up to you.

EDIT: Turns out that it was passive IR but only night vision, not TI equipment. So Vision 30 is appropriate! However, stabilization / fire control could be updated

Source: Finnish Tank Guild blog post about the history of the tanks: http://hyvarinen.blogspot.com/2007/07/blog-post.html
"Seitsemisenkymmentä T-55-vaunua modernisoitiin 1980-1990-lukujen taitteessa. Modernisoinnin tärkeimpiä osa-alueita olivat ruotsalaisperäinen ammunnanhallintajärjestelmä passiivisine pimeätoimintavalmiuksineen, putken lämpösuojus, T-54-ajoilta palautettu ilmatorjuntakonekivääri ja savu- ja valaisinkranaatinheittimet. Jonkin aikaa T-55M ilmeisesti oli Suomen panssarinyrkki (moderni ammunnanhallintajärjestelmä antoi sille huomattavan edun muutoin tehokkaampaan, kolmannen parlamentaarisen puolustuskomitean suositusten mukaan vuodesta 1984 hankittuun T-72-vaunuun nähden), mutta pääaseen vaatimaton kaliiperi 100 mm ja peruskonstruktion yleinen vanhanaikaisuus johtivat siihen, että T-55-kalustolle ei ole koulutettu miehistöjä vuoden 2001 saapumiserien jälkeen."

"Approximately 70 T-55 tanks were modernized in the late 1980's to early 1990's. The most important replacements were the Swedish made fire control system with passive night vision abilities, the heat protection (?) of the barrell and T-54 era AAMG and smoke and illumination grenades. For some time T-55M apparently was the leading tank in FDF (modern fire control system gave it a significant advantage over otherwise better performing, third parliamentary defense committee's recommended T-72 tank from 1984 and later) but it's modest 100 mm caliber and the old fashioned basic construction lead to abandondment of training new conscripts after 2001 arrivals."


Unit 033 BMP-2FIN
In 2011 FDF had requested offers for midlife upgrade of BMP-2 so it might be on it's way. Anyway 2011 is too early a guess, 2015 is my educated guess. Or then it's pushed back beyond 2020 or even cancelled altogether, depending on financial situation all over Europe.
Suggestion: Push the availability date to 1/115

Source: http://www.eda.europa.eu/EbbWeb/View...?Noticeid=3432
http://articles.janes.com/articles/I...mmunition.html


Units 035-037 NA-140 Nasu TOW
Unit class is 19, SPATGM which in the game code causes problems to movement compared to snow vehicles, which have an advantage in mud etc. even when there's no real life difference.

Suggestion: Add a move class Snow Track to be applied in bad terrain such as mud, volcanic ash, snowdrifts etc. if it is not too complicated to do in code.

Unit 070 SS-11 Team
Purchased in 1962, in 1966 FDF already possessed 164 SS-11 missiles.
Suggestion: available from 1/1965 or 1/1966

Source: http://yhdistykset-akaa.fi/reservila...inaari2009.pdf p. 15, latter table: status in July 1st 1966


Unit 093 23mm AAG
23mm ZU-23 was modernized heavily in late 90's. The current FDF page does not have information on AAGs but archive.org still contains information from 2007.

Suggestion: Set vision to 40, Range finder to 22

"Alkuperäinen 23 mm:n tykki on täysin mekaaninen ja sen ansiosta erittäin kenttäkelpoinen ja käyttövarma. Tykki suunnataan ja laukaistaan käsin. Ammunta perustuu tykin miehistön tekemiin näköhavaintoihin. Tykkiä ei voida liittää ulkopuoliseen maalinosoitusjärjestelmään.
-- --
Modernisoidun tykin tulitoiminta perustuu maalista mitattuihin etäisyys- ja kulmanopeustietoihin sekä ennalta annettuihin laskentaparametreihin. Näiden perusteella tietokonepohjainen tykkilaskin laskee ammunnan ennakkokulman. Tykki on varustettu moottorisuuntauksella ja sähköisesti ohjattavalla laukaisulla. -- --
Tähtäinjärjestelmän keskeinen osa on laseretäisyysmittari, johon sisältyy tähtäinoptiikka tähtäyskuvioineen. -- -- Tähtäinjärjestelmään kiinnitetty lämpökamera mahdollistaa pimeätoiminnan."

"The original 23mm gun is fully mechanical and therefore very reliable on the field. The gun is manually targeted and fired. The shooting is based on the crews observation and it is not possible to combine it with external systems..
-- --
The modernized version is based on the measured distance and angular velocity information in addition to pre-calculated parameters. The targeting computer calculates the necessary overhead. The gun is equipped with adjustment motors and electronic firing system. -- --
The central part of the aiming system is a laser range finder which includes the sighting optics. -- -- The IR camera attached to the targeting system allows night time operations."

Source: http://web.archive.org/web/200706300...4&equipment=79


Unit 095 30mm AAG
No information whatsoever found except for the Finnish designation 30 ITK 62. Only 27 units, so possibly not in active use at any point.
Made by Oerlikon, out-of-service date not found. Maybe put it to end 12/99? Now found only in museum Ilmatorjuntamuseo
Suggestion: end date to 12/99

Source: http://web.archive.org/web/200706300...4&equipment=79 (not listed)
http://www.ilmatorjuntamuseo.fi/page.php?page=tykit


Unit 099 35mm AAG Radar
Radar was modernized in early 2000's (let's assume 2003). The modernization included radar and control replacements, added laser R/F, CCTV and IR.

Suggestion: change end date to 12/2002, create new unit with start date 1/2003 with FC 110, R/F 22, Vision 40


Unit 101 40mm AAG
Removed from active duty in the 80's, scrapped in 2000.

Suggestion: stretch the end date to 12/2000

Source: http://www.ilmatorjuntamuseo.fi/page.php?page=tykit


Units 102, 103 57mm AAG / 57mm AAG Radar
Removed from service in 2000

Suggestion: set the end date to 12/2000

Source: http://www.ilmatorjuntamuseo.fi/page.php?page=tykit


Units 167, 168, 169 152mm Field Gun
Scrapped along with T-72s and bunch of other stuff. I believe they're all in fact the same howitzer (all howitzers except 122mm are gone), with modernization types differing.

Suggestion: end date 12/2007

"Year 2007 Finnish military declared 152 H 88-37A howitzers obsolete and now they are getting scrapped."

Source: http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/ARTILLERY6.htm


(Note) Unit 170 152mm Field Gun
Not listed in FDF pages but probably at least stored. Some youtube videos by conscripts show firing this gun in 2008.


Units 190, 191, 192 152mm FG Platoon
See Units 167-169
Suggestion: end date 12/2007


Unit 318 ZP-ZU-23M
see Unit 099
Suggestion: end date 12/2002, new unit 1/2003 with FC 110, R/F 22, Vision 40


Unit 320 ZSU-57-2M
The modernization project was seen as a failure, prototype disassembled and ZSUs removed totally from service in 2006. More Marks
Suggestion: Remove altogether

"Vaunuja tuotiin Suomeen 12 kpl vuosina 1960-1961. Vaunujen käyttö päättyi lopullisesti vuonna 2006."

"Modernisointiprojekti oli aloittamisaikanaan perusteltu hanke, mutta aika ajoi sen ohi. Hanke lopetettiin vuonna 1999, kun Puolustusvoimissa yleisesti luovuttiin neuvostoliittolaisperäisten asejärjestelmien kehitystyöstä. Modernisoitu prototyyppivaunu purettiin vuonna 2001."

"During 1960-1961 12 pieces were imported to Finland. The use of these vehicles ended for good in 2006."

"At the time the modernization project was a well-justified one, but development in FDF overran it. The project was cancelled in 1999 when FDF gave up modernizing soviet era weapon systems in general. The modernized prototype was disassembled in 2001."

Source: http://yhdistykset-akaa.fi/reservila...inaari2009.pdf


Unit 356 T-55M KTM-6
No more in active duty but not scrapped. Tank guild blog post mentioned that they're better built than the T-72s that were scrapped. KMT misspelled in names (multiple units), should be KMT instead of current KTM.

Suggestion: end date to 12/120

[DRG]

On the list..........

[dmnt]

Couple of minor things I failed to mention:

Unit 356 T-55M KTM-6
Unit 361 T-55M BTU/Dozer

Ammunition upgrade is missing, Unit 015 T-55MS has it.

Suggestion: Change weapon 1 from 97 (100mm D10TG 60) to 98 (100mm D10TG 79) and give some sabot ammunition

And really minor thing:
Unit 015 T-55MS
Incorrect AAMG 52 (NSVT), should be 54 (DShK)

Source: http://hyvarinen.blogspot.com/2007/07/blog-post.html

[dmnt]

Don etc, "keeping an eye on this" material, nothing final now, but a couple notable end dates 12/2016:

092, 093 23mm AAG
321, 322 Itpsv 91 AA, Itpsv 2010 AA although no replacement has been given - maybe keep 'til 2020 until replacement is announced?
561 SA-11 Buk-M1

FDF held a public press event where they represented the future plans for material upgrades as Finland will abolish personnel mines as per Ottawa treaty.

(In Finnish) http://www.puolustusvoimat.fi/wcm/d8...df?MOD=AJPERES

Army will be the focus point in 2012-2020, 2010-2012 it was navy and air forces.

Page 6 is the important one: by 2016 most of the AT weaponry is to be replaced. Pasis (APCs) are to be modernized from 2017 onward, and Nasus to be replaced (Snow tracked vehicles). 81mm, 120 mm mortars and 122mm howitzer are usable as they currently are.

Now starts the guesswork: AT weaponry to be removed from service are most definitely M72, APILAS and 95 S 58–61 heavy recoilles. What's there to replace them? Probably more ATGMs and MBT-LAWs, but it's all guesswork.

Some artillery pieces (not specified) are going to be scrapped as well, but probably not SP arty.

Vehicles: NASUs definitely and maybe BMP-2 (and/or MT-LBs? BTR-50?), XA-180 / 185 will be taken out of service as well as older trucks.

As anti-personnel mines are to be destroyed, FDF already decided to start negotiating about obtaining small Oribter reconnaissance planes and is updating the AT mines, adding more Claymore type manually released mines. Also equipment for night vision, area surveillance, TI-GPS-Laser R/F equipment ("MARS", p. 29).

From 1/2009 on (p. 32) the snipers have had an optional TI scope in use
From 9/2011 on (p. 32) the section TI equipment has been in use.

[dmnt]

Unit 349 NASAMS II

"NASAMS II FIN -järjestelmän varusmieskoulutus aloitetaan suunnitelmien mukaan Panssariprikaatissa vuonna 2012, josta johtuen jo tässä vaiheessa on järjestelmä saanut nimen ITO12. Kaluston vastaanotto ja henkilökunnan koulutus käynnistyy vuoden 2011 aikana ja ensimmäiset joukkotuotetut yksiköt valmistuvat vuoden 2013 aikana."

NASAMS II FIN system will be used in training conscripts according to the plans in Parola Armoured Brigade in 2012 and beacuse of this the system has been named ITO12. The arrival of equipment and training of the officers will be starting during the year 2011 and first combat ready troops will be out during 2013."

- The platform is SISU 4x4 all terrain truck
- Radar is AN/MPQ-64F1 "Sentinel", no idea on the performance but according to the document it's already in use in Norway
- Electro-optical sensors include TI, CCTV, laser range finder. Max targetting distance is 40 km.

source: FDF pages http://tinyurl.com/cpmmptv

Suggestions (current values):
Availability 1/2013 - 12/2020 (1/2015-)
Size 4, same as Sisu trucks (5)
Fire Control 125 (0)
Vision 40 (0)
EW 7 (0)
Crew 3 (8)

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

dnmt,
1. Are the "Jourkkotuotetut" units in your source front line AA units? I assume so, but I could see the ? asked only because my translator(s) didn't translate that word, issue being to clarify that these aren't test and evaluation and or training units. As your source indicates the first units will be equipped through 2013, so wouldn't JAN 2014 be a better compromise date to allow for any delays?

2. As was transferred from the Patch Post to the SP/SPAA thread Pg. 4 Post #35 Item A2 I was going to address the same issue on FC, VISION and EW. I generally agree with them and wonder the following if the EW would be better at 8(?), Vision 45(?), for the EW issue the network can shutdown once the AIM 120 AMRAAM has detected the target by it's own on board radar system. Also system operability and capabilities will greater as the radars are not as centralized as some other systems now that Finland and Norway are using the improved SENTINAL Radars.

3. See the April 1/11 note under the "Contract" section the SISU 8x8will be the main platform while the SISU 4x4 will act in the supply and support roles. The same info is in the SISU refs posted with the above mentioned Item A2. This why I only submitted the 8x8 and that as I well know you're aware of (That's a compliment.) the same thing as I concerning the general feeling about support vehicles i.e. radars and such and dare I say trucks in general as the "great" truck debate went on for a very short time around the time this was submitted in the PP Thread.

The below ref. covers all the above with most of the technical and performance data as well.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...Systems-05398/

Pic:




Regards,
Pat

[dmnt]

Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH

dnmt,
1. Are the "Jourkkotuotetut" units in your source front line AA units?

Joukko = Mass, troop, group
tuottaa = to produce

Direct translation would be mass produced, but in English it'd make you think of battle droids or something...

Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH

I assume so, but I could see the ? asked only because my translator(s) didn't translate that word, issue being to clarify that these aren't test and evaluation and or training units. As your source indicates the first units will be equipped through 2013, so wouldn't JAN 2014 be a better compromise date to allow for any delays?

Okay, let me open this up a bit. Finnish troops are trained from conscripts who serve 6, 9 or 12 months depending on assignment. The 2013 will be the first year they finish with the conscripts' training and list the troops in reserve units in their books. So the training will start in 2012 (probably NCOs trained from Jan 2012) and the first troops to get back home will probably be released in the beginning of year 2013 (Like January 4th or something). Usually when equipment gets to the public web page and when conscript training is fixed then the equipment is in use. I remember getting hands dirty on stuff that was yet to come, like night vision equipment and TI equipment in 1999, but it was only on evaluation and not in mass use and never listed in their standard equipment list.

The brigade lists the available positions for conscripts: http://tinyurl.com/c3nl86t
RO, NCO (362 days) and private/lance corporal (180 days)

Note that in Finnish system the RO / NCO are trained for 182 days before the rest of the unit troops arrive so they are all completed at the same time.

2. As was transferred from the Patch Post to the SP/SPAA thread Pg. 4 Post #35 Item A2 I was going to address the same issue on FC, VISION and EW. I generally agree with them and wonder the following if the EW would be better at 8(?), Vision 45(?), for the EW issue the network can shutdown once the AIM 120 AMRAAM has detected the target by it's own on board radar system. Also system operability and capabilities will greater as the radars are not as centralized as some other systems now that Finland and Norway are using the improved SENTINAL Radars.

It's hard for me to say anything about the performance, I'm such a novice when it comes to AA troops (tho I applied to get there, but they tried to move me to artillery long way from home and I pulled the "developing athlete, can't leave my team" card and they assigned me to the Guard Jaeger regiment along with other athletes...) that I have absolutely no standing in the performance section, only a gut feeling. I feel that the values given by you could be correct.

Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH

3. See the April 1/11 note under the "Contract" section the SISU 8x8will be the main platform while the SISU 4x4 will act in the supply and support roles. The same info is in the SISU refs posted with the above mentioned Item A2. This why I only submitted the 8x8 and that as I well know you're aware of (That's a compliment.) the same thing as I concerning the general feeling about support vehicles i.e. radars and such and dare I say trucks in general as the "great" truck debate went on for a very short time around the time this was submitted in the PP Thread.

This could be correct.
http://tinyurl.com/bt6xnfz shows the platform on 8x8, but the text goes "jota voidaan kuljettaa millä tahansa vaatimukset täyttävällä ja koukkulaitteella varustetulla kuorma-autolla.": "which can be transported with any truck that fulfills the requirements and has a pulling hook device (for which I don't know proper English term)." Requirement is to be able to carry 7200 kg.

4x4 is pretty much on the limit, so I think it is out. The 4x4 might refer to other parts as you said. 6x6 could be used, but I think for the time we should stick to 8x8, as there are at least some proof that it's used. http://www.sisudefence.fi/sites/defa.../public/83.jpg

Thanks for your input!

[dmnt]

Oh, the 8x8 is the armoured version of the truck E13TP, recognizable by the cockpit resembling of an insect's head.

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/sisutruck/

"In April 2009, the Finnish Defence Forces ordered 12 heavy-duty 4-axle Sisu E13TP 8x8 model trucks. These are to be delivered by 2014 as part of a €25m order for 80 Sisu trucks to be used for air surveillance and air defence systems. The Sisu 8x8 trucks will be used as mid-range air surveillance radar carriers. Sisu will supply the trucks in cooperation with Thales Raytheon Systems."

Steel armour level 1 all around?

[dmnt]

Originally Posted by dmnt

Unit 349 NASAMS II

"NASAMS II FIN -järjestelmän varusmieskoulutus aloitetaan suunnitelmien mukaan Panssariprikaatissa vuonna 2012, josta johtuen jo tässä vaiheessa on järjestelmä saanut nimen ITO12. Kaluston vastaanotto ja henkilökunnan koulutus käynnistyy vuoden 2011 aikana ja ensimmäiset joukkotuotetut yksiköt valmistuvat vuoden 2013 aikana."

NASAMS II FIN system will be used in training conscripts according to the plans in Parola Armoured Brigade in 2012 and beacuse of this the system has been named ITO12. The arrival of equipment and training of the officers will be starting during the year 2011 and first combat ready troops will be out during 2013."

- The platform is SISU 4x4 all terrain truck
- Radar is AN/MPQ-64F1 "Sentinel", no idea on the performance but according to the document it's already in use in Norway
- Electro-optical sensors include TI, CCTV, laser range finder. Max targetting distance is 40 km.

source: FDF pages http://tinyurl.com/cpmmptv

Suggestions (current values):
Availability 1/2013 - 12/2020 (1/2015-)
Size 4, same as Sisu trucks (5)
Fire Control 125 (0)
Vision 40 (0)
EW 7 (0)
Crew 3 (8)

NASAMS II units presented for media:
http://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/Satojen+mil...a1354255221733

NCOs have been trained for the task since September, the privates to be trained will enter their service in Jan 2013.

Availability 6/2013 - 12/2020

[dmnt]

Note, Don, that later on the above specifications were tweaked a little bit based on the comparison to other units.

Vision 40 -> 45
EW 7 -> 8
Armor: Steel/HEAT: 1 all over