OT: US President (US Dom Players only)

[Ylvali]

Originally Posted by otthegreat

I'm curious about what some of our friends outside of the US (i.e other dominions players) think about the two party system. I agree with what seems to be the general opinion here that it needs some work.

Well I´m from Sweden and here many of us are quite concerned about your election as well as the finanical crisis. Regarding your political system I can only speak for myself (and to me it is horrendous) but fact is that when referring to the US as a democracy many friends of mine and other swedes put "democracy" in quotes.

For us it is simply very hard to swallow a two party system with such abysmal variation between the two alternatives as "democratic".

Especially when a majority of the votes don´t always mean victory.

I guess I´d vote for Obama if I was american, but I´m afraid that even with him we will have to continue sending humanitarian aid to, and receive refugees from, areas ravaged by US invasions and "pre-emptive strikes" (FYI one small swedish town accepts more iraqi refugees than the entire US)

Our image of the US will remain that of an unpredictable bully to be feared and watched closely. A country so powerful that you have to sign deals with it even knowing they will be systematically broken. Our goverment will remain silent in fear of repression, and our political right will seize the opportunity of the crisis to push for privatization, tax-cuts and economic deregulation (the shock doctrine on export)

It would take a LOT of work to change that image. But I do hope you´ll try, for the sake of this planet.

[Bwaha]

WASHINGTON -- A Republican congressman from Georgia said Monday he fears that President-elect Obama will establish a Gestapo-like security force to impose a Marxist or fascist dictatorship.

"It may sound a bit crazy and off base, but the thing is, he's the one who proposed this national security force," Rep. Paul Broun said of Obama in an interview Monday with The Associated Press. "I'm just trying to bring attention to the fact that we may -- may not, I hope not -- but we may have a problem with that type of philosophy of radical socialism or Marxism."

Broun cited a July speech by Obama that has circulated on the Internet in which the then-Democratic presidential candidate called for a civilian force to take some of the national security burden off the military.

"That's exactly what Hitler did in Nazi Germany and it's exactly what the Soviet Union did," Broun said. "When he's proposing to have a national security force that's answering to him, that is as strong as the U.S. military, he's showing me signs of being Marxist."

Obama's comments about a national security force came during a speech in Colorado about building a new civil service corps. Among other things, he called for expanding the nation's foreign service and doubling the size of the Peace Corps "to renew our diplomacy."

"We cannot continue to rely only on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives that we've set," Obama said in July. "We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded."

Broun said he also believes Obama likely will move to ban gun ownership if he does build a national police force.

Obama has said he respects the Second Amendment right to bear arms and favors "common sense" gun laws. Gun rights advocates interpret that as meaning he'll at least enact curbs on ownership of assault weapons and concealed weapons. As an Illinois state lawmaker, Obama supported a ban on semiautomatic weapons and tighter restrictions on firearms generally.

"We can't be lulled into complacency," Broun said. "You have to remember that Adolf Hitler was elected in a democratic Germany. I'm not comparing him to Adolf Hitler. What I'm saying is there is the potential."

Obama's transition office did not respond immediately to Broun's remarks.
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You see why there's such concern about where our country is going.

[lch]

Originally Posted by Bwaha

You see why there's such concern about where our country is going.

Yeah, I'd be concerned about people like that in Congress, too.

Also, as has been mentioned earlier (Godwin's law), this guy just shot himself in the foot by Reductio ad Hitlerum. And so did you.

[JimMorrison]

Originally Posted by lch

Yeah, I'd be concerned about people like that in Congress, too.

Also, as has been mentioned earlier (Godwin's law), this guy just shot himself in the foot by Reductio ad Hitlerum. And so did you.

How dare you beat me to the post. I demand a duel, select your fish!

[Bwaha]

I don't think that Obama is hitler, I am very worried about our future. I think that we have to be watchful and informed. I try to get my information from many sources. Sometimes they are right and sometimes wrong. But at least I make an effort to stay informed. The parallels of where we are now is frightening similar to the hyperinflation of the mark. And the response is the same, Print more money. Create a national but separate "police" force. Wiki the Wiermar Republic.
I'm just scared that if we don't watch and restrain the government it will turn against us. Being informed is the one and only way to stop tyrants. I'm sorry if I offended you but I think we have to discuss the potental and guard against it.

[lch]

Originally Posted by Bwaha

I don't think that Obama is hitler, I am very worried about our future. I think that we have to be watchful and informed. I try to get my information from many sources. Sometimes they are right and sometimes wrong. But at least I make an effort to stay informed. The parallels of where we are now is frightening similar to the hyperinflation of the mark. And the response is the same, Print more money. Create a national but separate "police" force. Wiki the Wiermar Republic.

It runs in parallel because there was a stock market crash, too. The things that are done to combat hyperinflation are the same. But what brought down the Weimar Republic was that the chancellor could abuse power too easily and subvert the system by emergency decrees, in times of war for example.

Originally Posted by Bwaha

I'm just scared that if we don't watch and restrain the government it will turn against us. Being informed is the one and only way to stop tyrants. I'm sorry if I offended you but I think we have to discuss the potental and guard against it.

Where have you been seven years ago?

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally Posted by lch

Yeah, I'd be concerned about people like that in Congress, too.

Also, as has been mentioned earlier (Godwin's law), this guy just shot himself in the foot by Reductio ad Hitlerum. And so did you.

Cute. Godwins Law I knew of course. But thats the first time I remember seeing it put into logic rules as Reducto_ad_Hitlerium.

[Tifone]

Originally Posted by Gandalf Parker

Cute. Godwins Law I knew of course. But thats the first time I remember seeing it put into logic rules as Reducto_ad_Hitlerium.

It's actually a so called fallacy
Still works among us lil' wannabe lawyers

[JimMorrison]

Originally Posted by Bwaha

Obama's comments about a national security force came during a speech in Colorado about building a new civil service corps. Among other things, he called for expanding the nation's foreign service and doubling the size of the Peace Corps "to renew our diplomacy."

"We cannot continue to rely only on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives that we've set," Obama said in July. "We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded."

I think this concept of "Civil Service", and the concept of "security" were being lumped together. That is to say that if we had better foreign relations, and a more contented citizenry, that we would safer (read: more secure) from terrorist attacks, whether domestic or foreign in origin.

Originally Posted by Bwaha

Broun said he also believes Obama likely will move to ban gun ownership if he does build a national police force.

Oh how we love biased conjecture. What else does Broun believe? He's a member of the Committee on Homeland Security - so maybe he is just protecting himself, while whipping up anti-liberal sentiment?

Originally Posted by Bwaha

"We can't be lulled into complacency," Broun said. "You have to remember that Adolf Hitler was elected in a democratic Germany. I'm not comparing him to Adolf Hitler. What I'm saying is there is the potential."

You see why there's such concern about where our country is going.

And so the threshold of Godwin's Law is breached.

No, I don't see why there is "such concern", not from this. I saw concern on a nearly daily basis, due to GW Bush's actions, inactions, and legislation. You let someone gut the 4th amendment, and then you run around screaming that someone else might infringe "a little" bit on another amendment, in your eyes?

All I see here is politically aimed propaganda and hysteria-mongering.

Let's all relive 2004 and run around chanting "9/11, terrorism, Bin Laden" for a few months, shall we? I'm sure that will be productive. Let's always measure people by what we can imagine to fear they are capable of, rather than what they are actually doing, or have done. We just got through 8 of the worst years of governance in this nation's history, and McCain looked to want to continue walking down that same path - at least give the alternative a chance to step into office and prove he can do even just a LITTLE BIT better than what we've been trained to accept.

[chrispedersen]

We just got through 8 of the worst years of governance in this nation's history, and McCain looked to want to continue walking down that same path - at least give the alternative a chance to step into office and prove he can do even just a LITTLE BIT better than what we've been trained to accept.

See,

This is the problem with politics. I felt the 8 years under clinton were *horrible*. A president *lied* under oath, before a court, and then his political allies said party is more important than principle and ensured he got away with it.

Clinton tomahawked sudan - knowing osama wasn't there, and ended up paying restitution just to sway the wavering and distract attention from the impeachment vote. And while you leftists decry that 'bush lied and people died'.. pretty much you ignore the same thing when Clinton did it.

But, I have no problem giving obama a chance - I think we all should. I do think his shutting down gitmo and granting terrorists the rights of us citizens is appauling. I really can't understate that enough. Keep a lawyer employed!

But my real objection was the statement 'the worst governance in our history'. I doubt it actually qualifies as that - I can think of plenty of other stellar examples.

But even if it does, I include democrats in that 'worst governance'. I consider much of this financial debacle to be democrat inspired - from running Fannie and freddie like a democratic piggy bank, to requiring banks to make a certain percentage of their loans be to non credit worthy customers..

I guess what I'm trying to say Jim, is we can continue in this endless cycle of recrimination, or we can tone the invective down, agree that we have problems, and try to solve them civilly.