Exploit question

[MaxWilson]

Originally Posted by Digress

OK, saying it is "game breaking" was a touch over the top.

I would put it the category of "game ruining". Especially if someone exploited it with any success against me in an individual game. Which hasn't happened ...

But like a lot of things in MP games if something isn't explicitly ruled out before the game starts you, as a player, shouldn't really complain that much.

In a hypothetical situation where somebody is copying Bogus' orders and using them against you... doesn't that just invite you to Charm his commanders and use the same orders against HIM? And of course Charming a scout with a bow and Fire Commanders should be a lot easier than Charming Bogus in the first place, especially since you get multiple tries.

-Max

[K]

Originally Posted by Foodstamp

I have a feeling this discussion could be heading down Mists of Deception Boulevard soon.

If you look to your left, you will see all the people who wanted the spell changed, the most vocal are missing because they quit playing shortly after the patch they lobbied for.

Yeh, that was a hilarious time. I proved that small endgame armies could fight their way out of a MoD easily and posted game files to that effect, argued it wasn't that powerful of a spell and acquired a few stalkers who to this day won't let up, got marked by the mods as "kinda a douche" in my permanent file(before the mods realized they could and should hide that crap), and a few months later we got a patch for an issue we didn't need fixed.

Good times.

On another note, I think Max has a good point though.

[Sombre]

Originally Posted by K

Considering that the designers of the game have mentioned that they are OK with it

Where/when was this?

The only people I see veering this towards MoD thread territory and you and K foodstamp.

[Foodstamp]

I'll be your guide for this trip. This one will play out completely different than the MoD riot though because the devs are pretty much done changing the game!

Instead someone will have to create an MP mod that changes Bogus and his band of merry men into gigantic nerf balls that shower their enemies with candy when they are pinned to the ground and tickled under the arm.

[Gandalf Parker]

Even when the devs were actively working Dom3 it was a battle to try and get any changes to "Bogus and company" due to the special history involved which stretches back before the dominions game even existed. Im surprised they arent much stronger.

[Sombre]

Their slightly weird nature was very useful for modding unique units before the #unique tag, so I salute them!

[Digress]

Originally Posted by Foodstamp

Instead someone will have to create an MP mod that changes Bogus and his band of merry men into gigantic nerf balls that shower their enemies with candy when they are pinned to the ground and tickled under the arm.

I don't see this as a discussion about nerfing old Bogus and company. Its just about copying and pasting their commands in MP games. I take the view that it is not on, regardless of how effective it is in practice.

I know I have not tested it and perhaps it is completely "meh" as a strategy.

But if it has not been banned before a game starts the player on the receiving end shouldn't get too upset by it. I probably would but shouldn't ....

[Gandalf Parker]

Its another one of those items that creates an "everyone knows" argument. Its hard for a person who is creating a game to remember everything they want to rule on.

I still think that someone, maybe LLamaserver or the IRC group, could post a variety of such "well known community standards" someplace so that new games could do something like "Rule Set #5 applies"

[K]

Originally Posted by Digress

I know I have not tested it and perhaps it is completely "meh" as a strategy.

But if it has not been banned before a game starts the player on the receiving end shouldn't get too upset by it. I probably would but shouldn't ....

And that's the core of this argument. People who aren't willing to test out the tactic make a snap decision that it is "overpowered", then they lobby the forums to ban it because they aren't willing to adapt their playstyle. Often they do so while someone is currently using it in an MP game against them or after some defeat.

It's an irrational standpoint, and no amount of proof or argument to the contrary can convince someone with an inherently irrational standpoint.

It's the same logic behind the CBM mod, a whole "rather than these elements making me adapt my playstyle and become a better player, everyone else should just play the way that fits me."

I'd argue that the reason there is no master list of "community standards" for a game this old is simply because they aren't needed. People have been playing the game for years without problems, but every once in a while someone pops in and makes a stink about their favorite pet peeve after some defeat on the battlefield. I mean, there is currently an argument against frigging Astral Magic on the front page. WTH?

[rdonj]

K, why do you insist on being pointlessly argumentative and ignoring everything another poster says just so you can continue harping on about your agenda? Every time you open your mouth, you tell us all why those moderators made that little comment about you.

Who exactly in this thread is lobbying to prevent the bogus orders from being allowed? NO ONE. I see people talking about their opinions about it, but that doesn't even remotely resemble lobbying. They don't need to lobby against it, because nearly every single game advertised on the forums specifically states that you can't copy bogus' orders as it is perceived that most people see it as an exploit. Since the devs apparently removed those orders from the game when a previous version of the game had them, I'd say there's a good chance they consider it an exploit as well.

You will notice that I haven't said whether or not I consider it to be an exploit. This is because it completely fails to matter whether it is an exploit or not for what I'm saying to be true. It seems like most people believe it's only an exploit if the house rules for the game they're playing say that it's an exploit. Is there really a problem with that? Frankly I fail to see one.

Your comment about it being an irrational standpoint is also completely unwarranted, since the very person you are making this comment at has had his opinion challenged by you and is reconsidering it! Seriously, get off your soapbox and start paying attention to what people say, not just what you want them to say.

And why exactly are you bringing CBM into this? Because you're so bitter about the clam nerf that had nearly all of the top players of the game dancing in joy after the horrors of preponderance and artifacts? Have you ever even played CBM? Most of what CBM does is try to make sense out of things that the vanilla game got confused about :P I can assure you, QM does not just make changes because he's not a good enough player to play properly.

And last but not least, WTH to your complaining about people complaining about astral magic. THERE IS ONE GUY WHO WAS COMPLAINING. He is a new player who was owned by some pretty heavy control spam and didn't understand how to deal with it. And I don't think a single other poster in that thread said that astral magic was overpowered. They did, however, offer him some advice on how to deal with such a problem. Again, seriously, pay attention and read before you spout off this nonsense. You are literally as bad about it as these people you claim to exist are. Thank you for wasting our time and derailing a perfectly innocent thread with your propaganda and nonsense.