Is it just me or is Hellheim troops way to strong?

[quantum_mechani]

Sombre said:
Aren't these overpowered nations somewhat toned down in the Conceptual Balance Mod?

Yes they are, and in a very simple way that I don't see why Illwinter would find unthematic. Simply upped costs for glamour troops, and in the case of Helhiem capital only svartalfs.

[Morkilus]

quantum_mechani said:

Yes they are, and in a very simple way that I don't see why Illwinter would find unthematic. Simply upped costs for glamour troops, and in the case of Helhiem capital only svartalfs.

Also, resource cost of Light Weight Scale Mail was almost doubled, which hits the Hangadrotts at least.

[General_Jah]

Maltrease said:
Thunderstrike should be very effective. You just need lots of chaff. Try something like Aim (or better windguide) then Thunderstrike x 3 and retreat. Spread enough chaff around to delay his troops. If you are blasting Helherding ranks you are popping 100 gold per thunderstrike hit. As long as your Eagle Kings survive you can throw away 20-30-40 archers (2-400 gold) you will do far more damage.

retreating with hit and run is actually something I have not tried much of at all...

could someone point out to me the strengths of doing this and perhaps some techniques...

is it very effective overall?

thanks!

[FrankTrollman]

Deleted.

[Gandalf Parker]

I think that no matter what changes are made, there will be "not allowed in my groups games". But I consider it more based on "my groups games". If a group primarily plays one type of game (map size, game settings, number of players, victory conditions) then there will always be something that hits hard in that type of game. Therefore it gets left put bt people who play that type of game over and over and over.

But it shouldnt be balanced for that game. If it was then it would become imbalanced for other groups playing other games.

[Beorne]

FrankTrollman said:
The problem is that the Van aren't banned from your games because of unbalance. They are banned from your play group's games because of the perception of unbalance. Your particular gaming group is... very idiosyncratic. They do a lot of things that I don't agree with or understand.

So really, it doesn't matter whether the Vanir are balanced or not, they'll never be allowed in your games because the people in your group made a decision that they are overpowered and now no longer even consent to play against them.

Anti-Vanir tactics could be invented tomorrow that made the faction rank near the bottom and your group would still have them on the banned list. That's the joy of predjudice: it doesn't matter whether there's any reality to the opinion or not - the fact that further inquisition is refused on the subject means that the opinions can literally never change.

---

So yeah, Vanheim is good, but it's banned in your play group and it will never stop being banned in your play-group. And that doesn't have anything to do with anything that Johan did or will do in the future. Indeed, attempting to please your group on this subject is obviously a waste of Johan's time because the only way Vanheim could come off the banned list for your games is if it was shown to not be overpowered. And that requires playing against it, which you won't do!

-Frank

I think is not useful arguing about thre discrepancies between perception and inner truth, you know it's ALL about perception in every aspect of life. If you try hard you can find inner truth in religion, or perhaps in love. We're talking about DomIII.
We made up our decision (and I, who am the host, have a big influence in the process) after a set of games vs van. Not because prejudice (van/hel is among our favored nation) but because unbalance. I can assure you that a little cost increase and/or defence reduction would please me and re-open van/hel nations.
I don't think that any nation should need a so hardly customized "anti" tactics, it ruines my games. I prefer to developing a tematic nation rather an anti -heim nation. I like so. But there is a previous big thread full off better explained reasons by better english language people explaining Van overpower.
Btw, in the previous thread it seemed that all people (excluding two, at most) was in agree that Van was overpowered, and every once in a while this subject shows up.
So, what's your problem? You win with Van with you friends? I don't understand ....

[Kuritza]

Same applies to middle age vanheim, by the way. They have same dual-blessable sacreds, which completely decimate any PD and cannot be caught. Throw in commanders which can reach defence 30 - in my test games, three dual-blessed van commanders with some simple items crafted with construction level 4 were killing a fully equipped Sea King troll SC (without casualties, of course).

Lightining doesnt kill vans, frozen heart is a lvl6 spell and it doesnt kill vans too unless you use powerful mages.
On top of it einheres are one of the strongest infantry units in the middle age.
I simply dont know how to stop a dual-blessed vanheim, it's got no weaknesses. I'd suggest giving non-commander vans 10 hitpoints and removing glamour defense bonus (mirror image is enough, really).

[Gandalf Parker]

I dont think the numbers are quite that unanimous (not that it would matter even if it were). And in case you didnt, put me in that othr group

I think that threads like this collect people who agree with it so I wouldnt measure the responses that way. Plus you can always write off new players (no offense meant to anyone) but it seems that every nation they try during the learning curve ends up striking them as a problem because the balance is in the next nation they try.

Remember that in this game, the balance isnt between each nation. Its more of a rock-paper-scissors balance. As long as there is a nation which can beat a nation, then there is balance. We might not like it but it aint broke.

[Kuritza]

To be honest, new players dont find Vanheim that evil. In our community, we have quite some newcomers who keep advising 'its ok, just build more heavy infantry' or 'use mages'. Its old players who started with Dominions 1 think that dual-blessed vanheim is the most scary nation there is at the moment. Myself included.
As for the rock-paper-scissors - to be honest, I am yet to find a nation that doesnt have problems with Vanheim. Even if there is one, its one out of how many? Something's wrong with it.

[Gandalf Parker]

Most of the "problems" with Vanheim seem to be problems going head to head. Most of the answers to it seem to be defense, magic, stealth, etc. If the same tactics are being used then there will always be a "usually wins". I wouldnt want all nations to be balanced to where army-vs-army is the designing factor. The nations I most like to play do their "balancing" by using othr tactics than just my army is bigger than your army.