Poll: Is Clam Hording Too Good?

[thejeff]

If all of those are needed, sure it isn't a problem.

On the other hand I think the large/small game distinction is important. If, for example, every game on a 200+ province map or every game that lasted past 75 turn was won by a clammer, I think you could safely say it's a problem.

So looking at the HoF could be useful. It should be pretty easy to get size of map, from the game thread if nowhere else. You'd have to ask the winner about clams, though.

[Velusion]

Reverend Zombie said:
The response to a turtling clammer should be to rush (crush?) them, not change the game to eliminate their strategy.

This is an option if it is a land nation. In practice I don't see very many land nations attacking fortified turtled sea nations unless they have no other targets.

Also, since the graphs don't adjust for gem generating items, sometimes it's hard to tell who is really spam clamming.

[Reverend Zombie]

Velusion said:

This is an option if it is a land nation. In practice I don't see very many land nations attacking fortified turtled sea nations unless they have no other targets.

I do see an impressive number of EA wins by R'lyeh in the Victorious Nations thread, and I thought they were perceived as a generally weak position. Clamming could explain that, perhaps, but then any clam nerf would seem to disproportionately hit EA R'lyeh, if that's their main strength.

I don't see disproportionate wins by the other aquatic races listed in that thread.

[Nikolai]

In early age, R'lyeh is unbeatable underwater. They clean other water nations, and no one wants to touch them. They clam, they get astral vortex up, game over. Seen it happen earlier, seeing it in Scorned Land right now.

[Warhammer]

But if that is the case, why are people not ganging up on R'lyeh early?

[Shovah32]

Probably because of their ability to beat(apparently) other water nations - Oceania and atlantis both bordering R'lyeh isn't extremely likely, partially due to the fact that many maps aren't made to support 3 water nations.
Even with a teeam of several people, its hard to dislodge a water-focused nation from its home early on using only indy troops.

[Velusion]

Warhammer said:
But if that is the case, why are people not ganging up on R'lyeh early?

A land nation has to expend many more resources to attack an underwater nation than the underwater nation has to spend to defend itself. As a land nation that means your return on investment in fighting a water nation is much lower than if you picked a fight with a land nation.

This means you really need some sort of alliance to make it worthwhile to go into the sea early and such an alliance is sometimes very difficult to form when there are so many other tempting (and easier) land targets.

The widely accepted MP method for dealing with medium/large underwater nations is to leave them until the very end when the resources you can bring to bear are overwhelming and you crush them with raw force.

[Meglobob]

Whats this EA R'lyeh is unbeatable in the water?

AFAIK, in the early part of the game EA Oceania is the most dangerous water nation.

If all 3 water nations EA Oceania, EA R'yleh and EA Atlantis share the same ocean, then EA Oceania will come out on top if it rushes the other 2 early. Knights of the Deep with bless wastes everything in the path, in the water, for the first 30 turns or so.

If you mean LA R'yleh, then yea they are a severe problem. The can clam to there hearts content, generally speaking.

[Velusion]

Reverend Zombie said:

I do see an impressive number of EA wins by R'lyeh in the Victorious Nations thread, and I thought they were perceived as a generally weak position. Clamming could explain that, perhaps, but then any clam nerf would seem to disproportionately hit EA R'lyeh, if that's their main strength.

I don't see disproportionate wins by the other aquatic races listed in that thread.

In addition to clams in long games my theory for the R'lyeh dominance is that R'lyeh has such good astral casters - and astral in the late game is usually stronger. Plus R'lyeh is popular and there are some people who are very knowledgeable about about playing them. EA R'lyeh usually has a problem getting out of the water however - whereas it's my understanding that MA/LA have less problems.

I've also heard EA Oceania wins quite a few - though other than the fact I know they can clam with their national mages I don't know much about them.

[Evilhomer]

EA Oceania dominates EA Rlyeh and EA atlantis in a head to head conflict - just amazingly strong (water only) blessables.