suggestion about commanders

[st.patrik]

There is the magical item 'Pocket Ship' which enables you to sail over ocean provinces in much the same way Vanheim does (at least according to the manual).

If you think about oceans being pretty big it kinda makes sense that most nations can't sail on them. The technology involved in ocean-going ships is not something I'd expect Abysia (for example) to have - whereas small boats I think are reasonable for everyone to have, which is why you can go short distances from island to island without needing a special ability.

It also makes sense of why two nations sailing over the same sea wouldn't bump into one another - you can't exactly keep scouts all over the ocean to warn you of incursions. [of course under sea is different - outlying kelp villages, etc.]

[Nerfix]

I'm completely OK with Dominions II the way it is... The lack of ships just constantly jumps straigth to my face... But i agree that formations would be awesome.

[Yojinbo]

Guys,

Formations would be very taxing to the AI compared to the current battle logic. What we need is a borgMod; Dominions 2 strategic map with a call to Total War for the battles. Then you could run your own formations. (flashback; who remembers the game Breach? It had some kind of two-game integration) Now ‘all’ we need is an interface application to move the data and a complete rework of TA to model the monsters and magic.

Sea Battles would really need two phases; ship to ship and boarding. Look how Port Royal handles this; the boarding is all AI (no ability to watch anything but the numbers of sailors per side) while the ship to ship continues. This would drive my crazy; not seeing my boarding operation succeeded (or fail) while I sail around firing arrows and fireballs.

I would like to hear what Illwinter wants to do with Dom III before I have any suggestions. I trust these guys to make games that I like to play already.

[Nerfix]

About Dom III, i think IW will more likely make CoE III first...

Or then try something else...
*an image of Dominions JRPG flashes somewhere in the dark mind of Nerfix*
Now, a Dominions JRPG would be awesome!
How to combine heroic and high-lethality fantasy, how to mix Japanese and western RPG's, now that would be some challange for IW!

Of course i am kidding, unless IW is realy planning something like that...

[ September 29, 2003, 20:19: Message edited by: Nerfix ]

[Pocus]

didnt knew the wishlist for dominions XVII was already open...

[PDF]

Well, the problem IMHO is not that we don't have "ships" per se, but rather than sea is impassable to most nations...

So why not implement a simple "Port" structure, that will allow a (limited) army to cross 1-3 sea provinces, in the same way than Vanheim can sail ?

The port could be only allowed to some nations, and its cost, the ship range and ship capacity (size of army movable per turn) could depend on nation : Vanheim would get small cost ports and long range (they could use ships for armies w/o "sailing comander"), Arco could get medium range and capacity, Pythium short range/big capacity, Abysia nothing etc...

This won't be difficult to do, as the mechanics already exist , and will solve the problem.
The only big impact is on game balance ...
What do you think ?

[ September 29, 2003, 20:33: Message edited by: PDF ]

[Nerfix]

@Pocus:LOL!

@PDF:
Hmmmm... Well, that would be one solution...

[st.patrik]

I don't think I would want the kind of addition PDF is talking about. I think I prefer it the way it is.

[Bard of Prey]

Well, I guess I'll through my 2 gp into the debate...

On ships: the technical difficulty of adding ships as strategic or tactical units has already been pointed out, although if there were a way to overcome these problems (possibly for a potential Dom III), then I agree that it would be pretty cool to see monsters coming up out of the waves to board your ships...

The problem of ownership could be settled by treating ships much like stealthy units, except that they wouldn't be able to attack an underwater province (unless they could breathe water as well), but they would run the risk of being discovered and attacked by the underwater residents of that province (or by enemy fleets). The 'owner' of the province would be whoever controlled the underwater portion.

As far as buildings and such allowing 'abstract' use of ships, I don't really see the need. Not only are most of the cultures used as a basis for these nations drawn from an era when ocean navigation was not possible (or at least, not reliable enough to risk an army on), but there are already several nations that can enter sea provinces, plus the new Water Cult theme... so if you really want to fight in the seas, you've got lots of options.

There could be a few more small things added though... for instance, I could see a national commander, for nations like Pythium for instance, who's a skilled navigator, and can carry his army across seas like the Vanir do... or perhaps a Death spell that summons a 'Ghost Ship', allowing the casting mage to do the same.

I'm afraid I don't really like the idea of improved castles either... mostly because it takes away from the choices you make when designing your nation. Who's going to spend 150 nation points on a great fortress when you can get the same effect by merely spending gold in-game? The same goes for economic buildings really... these things are abstracted into such concepts as dominion scales (one could assume that a strong Order dominion encourages the building of mills and other economic structures for example), starting castle choices (for the administration and supply bonuses) and the 'natural' resource and tax base of various provinces (these places aren't virgin wilderness after all, they do have some infrastructure... you just don't have to mess around with building it yourself).

Formations are another cool idea, but I can easily see how difficult this would be to implement. For one thing, the major counter-tactic to most of them is to break up the formation. The coding for that would be a nightmare... how would the game determine when your shield wall was sufficiently mixed up that it no longer provided its bonuses? Would it happen gradually, or all at once? Also, you'd pretty much have to start accounting for things like which direction a unit was facing when it was attacked... and that's a pretty serious mechanic, especially for something to add in a patch. Would fatigue affect the bonuses you get from formations? What if your squads aren't composed of all the same types of troops? Can mindless troops use formations? Etc., etc....

It's not very often that I argue against the inclusion of new features in a game, but in some cases added complexity breaks more than it 'fixes'. This is especially true when it comes to programming the AI to use these elements... if not done carefully (and preferably in the very early stages of design), it is incredibly easy to 'lobotomize' the AI by adding features only humans can use properly.

[st.patrik]

Originally posted by Bard of Prey:
Formations are another cool idea, but I can easily see how difficult this would be to implement. For one thing, the major counter-tactic to most of them is to break up the formation. The coding for that would be a nightmare... how would the game determine when your shield wall was sufficiently mixed up that it no longer provided its bonuses? Would it happen gradually, or all at once? Also, you'd pretty much have to start accounting for things like which direction a unit was facing when it was attacked... and that's a pretty serious mechanic, especially for something to add in a patch. Would fatigue affect the bonuses you get from formations? What if your squads aren't composed of all the same types of troops? Can mindless troops use formations? Etc., etc....

That makes sense. Oh well. BTW you seem to have very well thought-out contributions - I give you 5 stars