Please Help Me Tune My Man

[Teleolurian]

Reading through the previous Posts, I'm very thankful for Alex's (astral-based) research path- it shows me what I'm supposed to be aiming for. Does anybody have any research paths to maximise the use of Nature? Haunted Forest is a great long-term goal but I don't know what to look for early on (except Thaum-2 Haruspex).

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by LordArioch:
I've been wondering why some sacred units seem to be overlooked. Battle vestals seem almost equivalent to serpent dancers for cheaper,
...

And it seems with any minor bless heart companions are a better deal than standard hoplites

I think alot of the older players feel that the bless effects are not worth playing in most cases. In Dom1 economy dominated with growth3, prod3, order3, scales being commen. To get bless effects races you have to give up on the core of what made for a reliable Dom1 race and most seem unwilling to make that step. Playing a death scale for Abyssia was seen as a bit too radical for most in Dom1 despite the obvious synergy involved.

While I understand the value of positive dominion scales and put them to good use in Dom1 I like the bless effects because:

a) They are new
b) They create intersting combo's/synergy
c) Patching luck/misfortune, order/turmoil, may be fairly devestating for serious bless effect races so it may be now of never. Of course it may open new possibilities but Illwinter tend to make strong things weaker based on the changes from Dom1 to Dom2.

The reason I haven't looked at Battle Vestals or Heart Companions is quite simple - I don't play Arco or Pythium as they are overpowered (race balence?). While I joined Dom1 late I am a very experianced MP/PBEM player so I stick to lesser lights and leave the glamour boys for others. Having said that 1 strat move sacred troops which you can only build in your capital (ie Heart Companions) are only worth "bless effecting" so much as you can't base your game plan around them without suffering berserk snail syndrome.

You are right that there are still numerous sacred troops to try and make something out - go for it.

cheers

Keir

[ywl]

Originally posted by Teleolurian:
Reading through the previous Posts, I'm very thankful for Alex's (astral-based) research path- it shows me what I'm supposed to be aiming for. Does anybody have any research paths to maximise the use of Nature? Haunted Forest is a great long-term goal but I don't know what to look for early on (except Thaum-2 Haruspex).

Some of my personal favorite for Man:
Alteration 3 : "Protection" - better armor for your troops
Conjuration 1 : "Tangle Vine" - good supporting spell for Bard
Thaumaturgy 2 : "Haruspex" - you've mentioned it
Conjuration 3 : "Call of the Wild"
Enchantment 2 " "Personal Regeneration" - good for Super-Combatant
Conjuration 5 : "Awaken Sleeper"
Construction 4 : for "Vine Shield" and "Ring of Regeneration"
Thaumaturgy 4 : "Gift of Reason" - could be very powerful
Conjuration 6 : "Contact Lamia Queen"

Some additional nice goodies:
Enchantment 4 : "Poison Ward"
Enchantment 5 : "Foul Vapor" - a standard combo for Man, "Gift of Health"
Enchantment 6 : "Faery Trod", "Relief"

There are a few new, basic attack spell in the Evocation school. I haven't tried them yet.

While playing Man, also pay attention to Air. Try to reasearch for levels that give you good spells in both.

[st.patrik]

Might as well add my priorities for nature research:

Alt. 6 - Mass Protection
costs a gem, but everyone gets barkskin - great for turning medium armour units into high-armour units

Conj. 4 - Strength of Gaia
Conj. 5 - Howl
Strength of Gaia gives side benefits as well as increasing your nature power, and howl is a nice way to harass casters since you can't target them anymore

Ench. 4 - Haste
Ench. 6 - Relief
Haste is nice if you're fighting an enemy big on missile weapons

Thaum. 5 - Growing Fury
Thaum. 7 - Charm
Growing Fury makes your guys go berserk, which means they won't rout. This is good
Charm is high-level, and short range, but otherwise good news

Construction (in general)
Everybody likes construction - specifically for treelord's staff or thistle mace to boost power, and if you have air various anti-missile items. Re-invigoration items are always nice too.

I don't much go for evocation, unless I'm making a poison-resistant army - which takes a lot of gems for summoning, and isn't always compatible with your regular army.

just my 2 cents

[ywl]

Originally posted by st.patrik:
Might as well add my priorities for nature research:

Alt. 6 - Mass Protection
costs a gem, but everyone gets barkskin - great for turning medium armour units into high-armour units

Conj. 4 - Strength of Gaia
Conj. 5 - Howl
Strength of Gaia gives side benefits as well as increasing your nature power, and howl is a nice way to harass casters since you can't target them anymore

Ench. 4 - Haste
Ench. 6 - Relief
Haste is nice if you're fighting an enemy big on missile weapons

Thaum. 5 - Growing Fury
Thaum. 7 - Charm
Growing Fury makes your guys go berserk, which means they won't rout. This is good
Charm is high-level, and short range, but otherwise good news

Construction (in general)
Everybody likes construction - specifically for treelord's staff or thistle mace to boost power, and if you have air various anti-missile items. Re-invigoration items are always nice too.

I don't much go for evocation, unless I'm making a poison-resistant army - which takes a lot of gems for summoning, and isn't always compatible with your regular army.

just my 2 cents

I've forgotten "Mass Protection". "Haste" is new in Dom 2 - I think, I haven't checked it out yet. I have mixed feeling on "Growing Fury". I haven't Lasted long enough as Man in MP to check out how useful it is yet.

"Charm" is nice but wasn't really practical In most cases, it's easier to kill an enemy than to defeat his/her MR. Also, anything beyond Level 6 is usually too late in the game to give a rule - you don't really know whehter you want to focus on Nature and you might have priority in some other paths.

"Evocation" is important for Man (Air), at least for the "Orb Lightning" or "Wrathful Sky".

[apoger]

>I've forgotten "Mass Protection".


I find it's only really useful when you have a mass of very low protection troops (like maenads). If your army already has good armor the boost is almost nothing.


>"Haste" is new in Dom 2 - I think, I haven't checked it out yet.

Needs a gem and has high fatigue cost. I don't see it as a spell I will race for.


>I have mixed feeling on "Growing Fury". I haven't Lasted long enough as Man in MP to check out how useful it is yet.

Absolutely awesome spell. It fixes all morale problems in one spell. Love it.


>"Charm" is nice but wasn't really practical In most cases, it's easier to kill an enemy than to defeat his/her MR. Also, anything beyond Level 6 is usually too late in the game to give a rule - you don't really know whehter you want to focus on Nature and you might have priority in some other paths.


I have found Charm worth racing for.
Against conventional troops you get a lot of value by converting an enemy troop. Your enemy loses one. You gain one. Plus the one gained is in the enemy line and causes a bottleneck. A bunch of Charmed can really jam up an enemy army and save wear and tear on you own troops.

Against non conventional forces Charm is super potent. Grabbing an enemy Hydra, Elephant, Giant, Commander with items... can easily alter a battle, and better yet can get you excellent troops for free (if they survive). Keep in mind that Charm gains synergy with mass use. When I use it, I almost always have many mages casting. Usually no less that ten. Casting ten charms a round, round after round, and you can often end battles with more troops than you started with.

Nature magic has many useful spells, but Charm, Growing Fury, and Relief, are the ones that get "great" results on the battlefield (in my experience). Sleep and Poison clouds almost make the grade, but are somewhat situational. On some occasions ordinary "Sleep" can be used to good effect, although in most cases it gets replaced by charm once the research is done.

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by apoger:

Against non conventional forces Charm is super potent. Grabbing an enemy Hydra, Elephant, Giant, Commander with items... can easily alter a battle, and better yet can get you excellent troops for free (if they survive). Keep in mind that Charm gains synergy with mass use. When I use it, I almost always have many mages casting. Usually no less that ten. Casting ten charms a round, round after round, and you can often end battles with more troops than you started with.

You forgot that his troops often leave the battle.

Thats why I like rushing for hellbind heart if Im using blood. 2-blood magics and get someone to switch sides. I especially like it with assassins (the commander attacks his province), and used with snatching spells with a bunch of blood mages waiting at a lab.

[Teleolurian]

Charm seems like it would be most effective versus the quality-troop nations, i.e. Abysia, Jotunheim, and maybe Ulm. Well, maybe I'm just thinking Ulm because of their low MR. After having read this thread, I can certainly see adjusting my on-the-fly strategy to take advantage of this spell if I find myself neighboring one of these nations.

Hellbind Heart also sounds great, but for Man would require branching into blood. Is it more effective than Charm, or is it just the lower research cost and the fact that it requires easy-to-harvest slaves?

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by apoger:
>I've forgotten "Mass Protection".


I find it's only really useful when you have a mass of very low protection troops (like maenads). If your army already has good armor the boost is almost nothing.

Ummm... you've tested this? If you have prot-13 HI, as Man often does, the equation is 10+13+(10*13/40)=19.75 (rounds up to 20). 20 protection HI are incredibly good, and that's a hefty +7 bonus. Much more valuable than raising a 0-prot unit up to 10 protection.

Even Ulm benefits. Protection-18 Ulm HI goes to 24, a +6 bonus, as opposed to the +3 bonus from Legions of Steel. Or in addition, if you prefer

-Cherry

[Taqwus]

If memory serves, Mass Protection = Mass Barkskin, and Barkskin only gives a single +1 PROT once above a certain threshold.