Blood?

[Truper]

This just doesn't fit my experiance Jasper. I find it takes alot of effort and as Saber says the game is generally fundamenally over by the time the goodies start to pour out. Hmm lets see I've pretty much won the game now but my Ice Devils have finally arrived. If I had never bothered I could have won it well back

I'm curious about this. What maps are you playing, vs how many opponents, and when is the game "fundamentally over"? I've had great fun with blood magic, and I use it because I do think its fun. Its also not so large an investment, depending on how you work it, so I'm also puzzled by the if I'd never bothered I could have won well back part.

[PvK]

I think it has a lot to do with skill level and play style. Keir talks about playing each nation several times, etc. He's an extremely experienced player. I've been putting most of my free gaming time into Doms I and Doms II for months, and the two games of Doms II I've actually finished of Doms II, ended because the AI wiped me off the map. In the other game, I think I may likely win, but I am still finding it rather challenging (and extremely enjoyable) and I'm having a lot of fun with the blood magic, which is seeming useful and worthwhile. I find that a single blood-1 hunter who now has 3 +1 blood items on him, producing about 9 blood slaves per turn from a 40,000 population province with 60-70% taxes keeping the unrest more or less constant without patrolling, and still providing a good gold income.

It's true I'm focusing more on having fun than trying to maximize my competetiveness, so I don't mean to contest that Blood might not be very efficient compared to other choices, especially for short/small competetive games with humans. Seems like one could generate a whole ton of blood income though if one really focused on that, though.

PvK

[Jasper]

Originally posted by Keir Maxwell:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jasper:
It doesn't take much effort to start summoning Ice Devils, which are effective. Hordes from Hell is even easier to get.

This just doesn't fit my experiance Jasper. I find it takes alot of effort and as Saber says the game is generally fundamenally over by the time the goodies start to pour out. Hmm lets see I've pretty much won the game now but my Ice Devils have finally arrived. If I had never bothered I could have won it well back. This is how I'm finding it SP. Still I have to give Alex's scout hunting a good try. Not looking forward to it due to the micro-management.

---

That's not my experience in multiplayer at all. Admitedly this is all from Dom 1, but Ice Devils aren't much harder to summon now. A Pretender or national mages able to summon Ice Devils only requires Blood 5, Construction 4, Alteration 2, and an easily attainable amount of resources.

The Last game I was in was essentially over before turn 60, and saw dozens of equipped Ice Devils, plus Pazazu, etc. This game was far from over before Ice Devils arrived, and they had a definite impact upon it.

I can easily see all Ice Devils being summoned in a competitive game, with the possible exception that the power of Paralyze may scare people away from the strategy.

The tone and setting of the MP is based in the first 15 turns of the game. Then adaptation of that tone and manipulation of the setting are what wins MP games (of moderate size, I'm not talking the largest maps with 17 players, these are more complex to make a statement that bold).

Super-combatants in my opinion while valuable early are not *as* valuable late. Mobility is stronger than strength in this instance and this is where Ice Devils and any other supercombatants are useful. They are usually very mobile and hard to pin down as well as take out with magic if they are built properly.

By and large it is the early supercombatants that provide the initial resource boost that allows you to mold the game in whichever way you are planning. As well as determining if you are an ally, enemy, target, or not worth the cost to fight at that particular time.

This is where astrally potent races excel as they can place a few units (commanders) in provinces or clean up provinces taken by the enemy that can handle and eliminate alot of the high mobility supercombatants.

[Keir Maxwell]

Playing the AI's I find I get to the stage in a game when its cleanup time. Before this is a period in which you are not quite sure if your opponnets will suprise you but then it becomes clear you have got the game won as your armies reach killer status - tight and unbeatable by anything on the board. I like the game to end about this point so at present I'm playing on the non wrap around desert eye with 656 as the dominion total for victory. I had the total at 700 but this actually makes it harder for an AI to steal a win - seeing how many temples they build they have a real shot at beating me even if I would win in the long term. I reach the dom target sometime between turn 40-50 generally. The Last 5-10 turns are often a bit of a chore (I have an extremely taxing other life) as things are generally pretty clear and its only errors to watch out for.

Sure I could play on bigger maps and have longer games and I'm sure thats where blood shines - just my shoulder gives up and my head starts to ache real bad. So I go shorter games.

Jasper I suspect your Dom1 experiance is not as relevant as you might think. In Dom1 I could get Ice Devils on turn 8-9 using a Caelum race focused to the purpose. It's just not the same in Dom2. First there is less money, then there is dousing rods at con4 and only useable by blood mages creating a need for heaps more money, then there is the extra research ofg getting to blood5 instead of 4, then there is the changes to patrolling discouraging you from using a blood7-9 Fountain of Blood to hunt in your home province - that really slows things down.

I find in Dom2 I have to focus more on the basics - army building - and less on the magic. Sure over time the magic kicks in but not as fast. There are alot of different reasons for this from less gold early to decline in the power of Seasonal Spirits.

Of course I accept this is all but speculation and I'm trying hard to prove myself wrong and do some real damage with blood. I appealed because I was getting stuck and I needed some fresh idea's. I'm quite excited about trying out my new Mictlan design with powerful dominion and FoB. I've got the start working but the mid game is really tough and human players would eat me. Mass Protection is what I think the race will turn around not blood. Magic3 for getting to Mass protection relatively early and a starting Dom of 10 for lots of sun Warriors and its looking alot rosier.

Cheers

Keir

[Jasper]

I realize full well that it takes more effort to get to Ice Devils in Dom 2 than in Dom 1, but this merely tones down this most broken of Dom 1 strategies into something more reasonable.

Sure, you'll see less Ice Devils, but I hardly expect to see none -- researching a path to 5 and getting 55 blood slaves just isn't that hard. I doubt you can still get them on turn 8, but you can get them by turn 20 without undue effort.

If Ice Devils end up being unviable, it will be due to fear of Paralyzation.

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by Jasper:
you can get them by turn 20 without undue effort.

I would rephrase that to you might be able to get them by turn 20 with much effort. To get Ice Devils by t.20 has proved too much for me so far. Sure I haven't tried ditching development to get them but then its not worth it to do so. I'll have a whirl with my new Mictlan race today and see when I can get them by.

My present Mictlan race has done very well and could have got Ice Devil by t.33 if I hadn't had to side track to deal with the Burden of Time.

Comparing Ice Devils in Dom2 to Dom1 is not accurate. The ID's have changed from uber powerful to hard to get and vunerable. Oh and someone else can always beat you to them so you may only get a couple.

cheers

Keir

Cheers

Keir

[General Tacticus]

Let see, researching Blood 5 should cost 300 rp, a good research pretender can easily do that by turn 20 if he does very little else.

Now, you need to have 55 blood slave by turn 20. No problem. But what you really need is to have an income of 55 blood slaves, say at the very least every two turns, with enough over to still spread your dominion. That means, I would say, about 10 mictlan priests (let's use Mictlan) on permanent blood hunt, by turn 20. Plus a way to bring the slaves back, either labs or scouts on carrier duty. (I assume you are not blood hunting in your capital, which is your main source of gold)

I would put that setup at 1000 gold minimum, plus half the commander recruiting capability of your capital. As a rough guess, you have been spending 20% of your gold income on the setup. You would be hard pressed to do some serious site searching at the same time, so no gold from alchemy. And you still have to expand, without your pretender...

Yes, it looks like it can be done, on paper. Still, that 20% of your income will be missed elsewhere : for building additional fortress, province defense, even plain old armies... You also need more priest on sacrifice duties. Not to mention the fact that your good research pretender has cost you a lot of points, so your scales are not that good.

I haven't tried ice devils, so I cannot say how good they are, but would you say 1 Ice devil every two turns is worth investing 20% of your income for the crucial 20 first turns ?

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by General Tacticus:
Let see, researching Blood 5 should cost 300 rp, a good research pretender can easily do that by turn 20 if he does very little else.

I may be wrong but my understanding of how you make a blood economy work includes Sanguine Dousing rods and I certainly wouldn't miss out on early Jade Knives with Mictlan - these make a huge difference. So realistically you have to research con4 first. Build dousing rods with your early blood, empower someone to water3 if your pretender doesn't have it, and summon the Ice Devil and then equip the Ice Devils. Uneqquiped Ice Devils in a heat dominon are not that strong - work best for Jotun and Caelum.

Ice Devils are not strong enough that you can afford to cripple the rest of your development to get them. They must come out of a natural developing race or else you will be meat. My 8-9th turn ICe Devils with Caelum in Dom1 was not a strong race. It was just really cool. My powerful races in Dom1 using Ice Devils didn't get them up and runing till around turn 20 so its going to be a struggle in Dom2 to beat this - I'll give a whirl now and let you know how I go.

Cheers

Keir

[apoger]

>I may be wrong but my understanding of how you make a blood economy work includes Sanguine Dousing rods and I certainly wouldn't miss out on early Jade Knives with Mictlan - these make a huge difference. So realistically you have to research con4 first.

I never use SDR's in Dom2.
I see little point to Jade Knives unless I'm having extreme dominion scale issues, which has rarely been the case.

If I was planning on doing Con-4 and blood hunting, I'd skip the ID's and concentrate on Soul Contracts and Lifelong Protections. That way there would be some synergy to my plans.

[ January 05, 2004, 22:05: Message edited by: apoger ]