Gauging interest in a Dominions Roguelike...

[Ed Kolis]

Wow, I got a Dominions developer to comment - and start a "Great Waiting"!

Hmm, I'm kinda in a dilemma here now... I'd like to move forward with this, and there are quite a few things I could implement now (dungeon/terrain generation, ability to move character about, inventory, etc.) but I got started on creating an XML database of all the spells in Dominions and geez, there are HUNDREDS of them! How the heck am I going to enter all those in?!? I have a schema pretty much set up (all that's left is a list of ritual spell effects - by effects I mean generic stuff like "do damage" and "heal stuff" without specifying exactly how much or where - and maybe some effects are missing from the combat spell effect list, IIRC)... but anyone want to help with data entry? Not the most rewarding task but it might help me get over this block I've stumbled across... I could move on to something else but I know I'll have to get back to the spell list sometime anyway, so it seems kind of futile to even do anything else...

Another thing that distracted me, too, is that entering in all these spells would create an ideal spell reference, but I'd have to modify them a bit to fit a roguelike, so I was thinking maybe I should try to make my own spell reference first without modifying them - but that would take just as long! So I'm looking right now at other fun pointless things to do with XML and game data files (such as maybe an SE4 ship design analyzer which tells you all kinds of stats like "total hitpoints" and "damage inflicted per turn" about your designs before you actually build them - the designs would be stored as XML data, if you were wondering where that would fit in), just because XML seems fun to work with BUT - that would distract me from the roguelike even more than I already am, and I know you all want me to move forward with that...

[Kristoffer O]

When we made dominions we didn't intend to make 1000+ units and hundreds of spells. At first I had perhaps five spells planned for each magic path and there were no schools at all. Our first step was to make a battle field where you could move a single soldier and have him strike an opponent. Then some more soldiers followed. Then soldiers were bereft the freedom of will and squads and commandrs were introduced. Then came orders other than move/attack. Still no spells. Then some strategic level with a map. Then some magic research, but the research system was remade several times until it became what it is today. By that time we had more than a hundred spells, but still not what we have today.

Try to start with some basic things. Huge lists can wait. It's very easy and fun to add new stuff when you have a system that works.

Your first priority should probably be to make something that you can 'play'. First of all just an '@' that moves around. Then a way to fight monsters and a monster to fight. Then some magic perhaps. Then more world to move around in. Etc.

This worked for us anyway. If we would have started with a list of 1000 units and spells we would have given up sometimes during 1997

[Vicious Love]

Methinks you're going about this the wrong way. Beyond Kristoffer O's "start small" comment, there's also the undisputable fact that the majority of Dom 2's spells have nothing to do with a Roguelike game. Baleful Star, Maelstrom, Lure of the Deep, Fires from Afar, Burden of Time, the list goes on and on.
Furthermore, half the spells which DO make the transition from game to game would look VERY different from Rogue's Eye and God's Eye views.

Maybe instead of trying to recreate Dominions from ground level or recreate Rogue with Dom 2 spells and creatures, you should ask yourself what a Roguelike game can do that do that Dom 2 cannot, and what Dom 2's unique style can do that Rogue cannot.
That is what this is, right? The spirit of Dom 2 in the body of Rogue. Which is why you probably shouldn't focus on Dom 2's stats, but rather on the flavah.
For instance, you know what would make Rogue fun? Battle afflictions.

Oh, and if you do end up using ASCII, instead of sprites, the Vampire Queen should be a navy blue, uppercase N.



Sorry, that was uncalled for.






Heh.

Update: Incidentally, does it have to be dungeons? Above ground raids are so much... more. Villages of ASCII based orcs, trolls, Spaniards* or Asians or whatever to burn down, rows of tall tilde-grass to sneak through, percentile shrubbery to protect against missile fire. There's much more room for simple, but interesting, tactics, and it's easier to weave generic story-like missions into(a la Daggerfall. Which used dungeons, but that's beside the point).
Also, the villain should look like this:
______ v
_____ (S <&

Not wingaling, but such is ASCII.


* Represented by extravagant moustache ASCII, {

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Vicious Love said:
Oh, and if you do end up using ASCII, instead of sprites, the Vampire Queen should be a navy blue, uppercase N.

Talk about undeserved honors.

[Ed Kolis]

OK, thanks for the advice, folks... now my little @-sign can run around the empty dungeon! Well, not exactly run as I haven't implemented the run commands yet; he can only move one square per keypress.

Now is there any trick to moving the cursor about on a console window? I tried to highlight the player with the cursor, but no matter what I did the cursor always stayed one square after the Last character printed! Is there a trick to this or is it just another Microsoft bug ? (I'm using .NET SDK 2.0 Beta so I should expect more bugs than is typical for a Microsoft product, if such a thing is possible )

Hmm, what to do next? Add monsters? Items? Terrain?

BTW, if anyone wants to see what I have so far, and is willing to download the .NET runtime 2.0 beta (or already has!), I've posted my work on my website: http://home.fuse.net/koliset/Programming/DomBand.rar . You'll need the .NET Framework 2.0 Beta runtime which you can find on Microsoft's website; sorry about the huge runtime which will soon be obsolete when the real 2.0 is released

[Kristoffer O]

Next?

Probably some simple terrain that blocks the way. Trees or walls.

Then one simple immobile monster to kill. An Oracle perhaps. Or a Thing of Many Eyes.

Then remove the ability to hurt the enemy unless you have a weapon. Then add a spear to pick up and equip so you can wound the beast.

Good Luck!

[magnate]

I was interested in the comment about not using Angband code. You could easily use a lot of the code to do stuff like draw the screen and move the character without spoiling the game for yourself. It's all in which files you look in. Try the z-*.c files for a start. (Actually start with main-ibm.c and go from there!)

For those of you who don't like Angband's somewhat arbitrary character level progression system, try Sangband. It has a skill system which is much more believable and engrossing.

My 2p on which bits of Dom2 to focus on putting into a roguelike: I'm with Vicious Love on this, it's the flavour that's important. So the 17 races are not only the character races but the monsters as well - you can add some code to prevent the player's own race turning up as monsters. The cheap units are the low-level monsters, and the more expensive ones start later on. So you start off killing scouts & LI, and work up to taking on iceclads and principes.

Setting it above ground has its advantages but is much harder to do. I'd start with a dungeon and add a wilderness once it's working.

There is already a spreadsheet which lists all the Dom2 spells, btw.

CC

[Tuidjy]

Do I have to do everything here?

The time period - immediately before the Ascension wars.
The hero - a disgruntled man who has an axe to grind with the Supreme Deity.
The setting - the hollowed mountain, capped by a tower, in which the One resides.
The enemies - the guards, worshippers, and piligrims from all seventeen races.
The vaults - trophies room from His ascension.
The special levels - single race levels, path themes, well known players.
The end boss - one of the pretenders of the original Dominion
The easter eggs - too many possibilities to mention

Steal, I mean borrow the code from ADOM, and Bob's your uncle.

[quantum_mechani]

I had a bit different take on it. I was thinking the goal would be to become a pretender. Sort of like a dominions prequel. The way those human pretenders say that they have achieved such amazing power that they can now contend for godhood sounds a lot like the lategame in most roguelikes/RPGs.

Another fun way to make it more Dominions themed would be to have magic site dungeons. For instance, you might find the bile marsh dungeon where you fight bog beasts, horned serpents and hydras. Or the cloud pillers packed with air elementals and storm demons. Or an overgrown graveyard with carrion animations.

Lastly, I don't think most national troops would go well as standard monsters to fight. I was thinking low level mosters would be more like sprites, wolves, black hawks, longdead, ect..

[rylen]

Tuidjy said:
Do I have to do everything here?

The time period - immediately before the Ascension wars.
The hero - a disgruntled man who has an axe to grind with the Supreme Deity.
The setting - the hollowed mountain, capped by a tower, in which the One resides.
The enemies - the guards, worshippers, and piligrims from all seventeen races.
The vaults - trophies room from His ascension.
The special levels - single race levels, path themes, well known players.
The end boss - one of the pretenders of the original Dominion
The easter eggs - too many possibilities to mention

Steal, I mean borrow the code from ADOM, and Bob's your uncle.

Sounds really good. This was my v2 proposal.

Another fun way to make it more Dominions themed would be to have magic site dungeons. For instance, you might find the bile marsh dungeon where you fight bog beasts, horned serpents and hydras. Or the cloud pillers packed with air elementals and storm demons. Or an overgrown graveyard with carrion animations.

Mostly what I meant by sites w/ guards on a world map. Great for down the line. Early on, I suggest just make the single theme levels.

Rylen