Conceptual Balance (Discussion)

[Peter Ebbesen]

B0rsuk said:
My complaint about indy mages isn't that they're too weak, but that they're somewhat too expensive for what they do. I know they're meant to be weaker, but why make them so pricey ?

1) Because they are ways for nations without access to the paths that the indy mages have to actually get access. Gaining access to paths that your nation is not "thematically" supposed to focus on has got to be expensive.

2) Because, if you already have national mages that can do what the indy mages can do, it is preferable from a game perspective, as well as more fun in the long run, if the "profitable" thing to do is to use your national mages. More differentiation between nations that way, when they don't all run around recruiting the same independents.

For both reasons it is without shadow of a doubt better that independent mages are both more expensive than equivalent (low-powered) national mages and less powerful than the powerful national mages. In other words, it is best if they "suck" in all situations but one: namely the one in which you really need their sort of magic.

[Nerfix]

Twan said:PS : about horror marking I also support a big nerf. As it is you just need 3-4 S2 mages, a level 1 research and about 20 gems, to condemn a SC to chain death (see the sad story of my pretender here)

I quite like the Horror Mark as it makes people think more than 0 times before they roll out an SC.

Then again, I also understand the concerns about it's power. Perhaps the Thaum 1 spell should be MR resistable (vaguely useful before Antimagic items are mass-produced) and there could be a higher-level Horror Mark that can't be resisted by MR. A Blood/astral Horror Mark spell would also be funky.

But then again, you can't create new spells. Saddness.

[PDF]

Agreed on the ideas on
Lt Cav : it's hopeless at current prices. Either some more prec or some less gold, or a mix of both

Indy mages are very crappy now, expensive and weak. One of the other could be ok but not both...I'd rather go for somewhat boost them (50% path instead of 10 for example....) rather than making them cheaper but useless anyway !

@Endo
About archers I don't ask to have better "humans" or whatever race, my idea would be to have more variety and balance amongst archers where current only difference is prec.
So creating new bow "sub types" (inferior shortbow, etc..) could help differentiating poor troops such as Atavi or Bakemoni vs better ones, be they Ulmish or whatever.

[Nerfix]

We do get Small Bows now...

And Bakemono Archer's usefulness isn't related to the power of their bows but the sheer affordability. Cheap price = Volume of fire + easy acces to Flaming Arrows = Mass Destruction.

[Gandalf Parker]

I havent read thru all of this thread but...
my peoblem with balance mods is that they tend to balance toward one persons playing style. One persons balance of Pangaea is to make it more like LA Ulm (armored, using more resources, more able to fight an Ulm army of equal size) while if I were ever interested in "balancing" Ulm to Pangaea Id make it less armored, less use of resources, add more stealth and give them flying units.

But Zen has done great work in the past so I will wait and see what comes from this.

Gandalf Parker

[Nerfix]

Another thing is that EA Van/Hel units should propably cost more resources, at least Helhirdlings. IIRC those units even use magic armor, so it could be even justified (other than them being too easily massable now).

And Ulm, hmmmm, I think the randoms on the smiths should be 25% instead of the 10% we get now. Ulm is not supposed to be a mage power, but even in the rank of mago-phobic empires (LA Man, Marignon etc etc) they are really weak on the mage departament and while the randoms are interesting the 10% chance to get them is a consolation prize. I'd add capital only Grandmaster Smiths who get a 100% random, but that's just me.

[Reverend Zombie]

This might warrant a separate thread, but there are commanders with special default ranged weapons that they lose when equipped with melee items. I'd like to see the #bonus tag added to the Lord of the Summer Plague's Plague Bow and to the Harbinger's Horn, so that they are not forced to use "fist" in melee if we want them to use their ranged weapon.

[Zen]

Reverend Zombie said:
This might warrant a separate thread, but there are commanders with special default ranged weapons that they lose when equipped with melee items. I'd like to see the #bonus tag added to the Lord of the Summer Plague's Plague Bow and to the Harbinger's Horn, so that they are not forced to use "fist" in melee if we want them to use their ranged weapon.

This is something I will be doing as well. There are a number of commanders with wierd slot problems. They are easy enough to fix.

[Graeme Dice]

Gandalf Parker said:
I havent read thru all of this thread but...
my peoblem with balance mods is that they tend to balance toward one persons playing style.

Well, one thing to remember is that it's almost always possible to force somebody to have to deal with your large, powerful army. Siege a castle, and unless they break the siege, they'll lose that castle, and give you a recruiting centre right in their empire. If a nation can't deal with a frontal assault by the troops of another nation, there's likely a balance problem, as you can't guarantee that every battle will be fought on your terms.

[Shovah32]

Heres another request:
Improve the national (marignon and pythium) spell heavenly choir, the commander it gives you (seraph) is amazing but the troops are really bad (magicless harbingers suck except vrs undead and angels of the choir just plain suck).