Helheim Superpower!

[Gandalf Parker]

Whats to demonstrate? A Pan can move thru an area and "attack" it without losing its stealth. It drops maenads in that province and they attack. That makes it fairly efficient as a pain-in-the-back-provinces.

It also is great as an assassin since you dont have to keep testing the province to see whats left and if you can take it. Each turn you get an assassination, followed by a maenad attack.

The drawback of course is their cost. But for a total-stealth strategy it has a good function.

[Graeme Dice]

Gandalf Parker said:
Whats to demonstrate? A Pan can move thru an area and "attack" it without losing its stealth. It drops maenads in that province and they attack. That makes it fairly efficient as a pain-in-the-back-provinces.

Maenads without a commander will rout on the very first turn. They will have absolutely no effect unless your opponent does not purchase a single point of province defense. If that's the case, then you'd be better off using scouts, since you could capture 17.5 provinces for the same cost as a single Pan.

Actually that's not quite correct, they will have some effect. They'll raise unrest by about 2 per attack, so you have a 350 gold spy that's about one fifth as effective for ten times the price.

It also is great as an assassin since you dont have to keep testing the province to see whats left and if you can take it. Each turn you get an assassination, followed by a maenad attack.

By the time you've set up a blood economy and research to get black hearts there will be no independent provinces left to use them on. Every province will have a permanent province defense commander that is completely immune to assasination and will prevent an unlimited number of non-magical, non-mindless troops from routing.

The drawback of course is their cost. But for a total-stealth strategy it has a good function.

The other drawback, of course, is that it has absolutely no effect on a province with one province defense.

[mac5732]

I've beaten helheim with the pale ones, by using a lot of earth magic and lots and lots of Beameths from Death Majic, I found that armies with 30-50 Bemeths supported by large groups of Enliven statues with magma children and throw in some Trolls. I put minimum 25-30 Bemeths in each of my armies, usually 30-50, put on attack and put in front line. put the statutes on the flanks of the bemeths. also make sure your intrinsic defense in all your provinces have at least 25 in beginning and higher later on, my important provincies I put up to between 70-80 as Helheim loves to sneak in and attack you behind the main lines. this is just what i found out in fighting them.. good luck

[alexti]

Gandalf Parker said:
Whats to demonstrate? A Pan can move thru an area and "attack" it without losing its stealth. It drops maenads in that province and they attack. That makes it fairly efficient as a pain-in-the-back-provinces.

Demonstrate how well you can do vs Caelum with that strategy. I can play Caelum even though I'm not a Caelum expert.

You need a commander to make Maenads fight. And if Pan participate in attack, next turn you can't attack another province without exposing yourself to demolition squad.

[Gandalf Parker]

Actually thats not true. Maenads attack anywhere from two to five rounds. Definetly long enough to get a rout from the other guy in many instances. And of course estimations about how long it takes to make a Pan reasonable as an assassin depends on the game which is part of my point.

Sure lets play. 1500 provinces, indepts at 9, scattered structures and monsters across the map, AI's with alliances, 25 victory points (provinces with crowns that you have to take and hold) with 20 VP needed for a win.

[Jack_Trowell]

Do maenad start having already gone berserk ? Berserking units units usually doesn't rout even when the whole army does, it might explain ...

[SelfishGene]

1500?? Indies at 9? Those are some bizarre settings.

[Jack_Trowell]

SelfishGene said:
1500?? Indies at 9? Those are some bizarre settings.

Gandaf is well known to love *big* maps, he's almost legendary for this. ^_^

[Graeme Dice]

Gandalf Parker said:
Actually thats not true. Maenads attack anywhere from two to five rounds.

Completely incorrect. They rout on the first turn, which you would know if you had bothered to test it. Even if they didn't rout, five maenads (which is more than what you will get in an opponents order dominion) are not going to rout a province defense that costs 23 gold, which is what your Pan costs you every single turn.

Sure lets play. 1500 provinces, indepts at 9, scattered structures and monsters across the map, AI's with alliances, 25 victory points (provinces with crowns that you have to take and hold) with 20 VP needed for a win.

Why would you suggest adding AIs and extra provinces to a two player multiplayer game that would take several years to complete unless you didn't want to debate honestly? You've also just given the victory to Caelum with those conditions, since he'll be able to cloud trapeze into all of the victory provinces long before your footsloggers get anywhere near them.

[Gandalf Parker]

SelfishGene said:
1500?? Indies at 9? Those are some bizarre settings.

Those are the kinds of games I like to play.
That was part of my point from the beginning. I wouldnt have bothered poking into this thread at all if it had said that Vans were a problem on small map multiplayer kill-everyone games that tend to end quickly, or something like that. It might seem that most people play Dom as player-vs-player arenas. And that leads to the impression that its what Dom is for. But thats mostly from the traffic in these forums. Obviously the vocal people in these forums dont reflect most players altho they might reflect a large number in these forums. With such a good manual, much of the traffic here are people who are looking for those type of games.

Even discounting solo players which there must many MANY of based on sales... there are many variables in even MP thats that would matter. Large maps, hard indies, high research, low resources, MP games that stress alliances instead of PvP, Victory Point games (I dont think Ive ever played a game with the Devs that wasnt a VP game so it definetly cant be discounted as part of what Dom is). Its usually better to try and state that something is true based on the types of games being played.

Not to mention the really chaotic stuff I like to throw in like scattering squads of monsters all over the map. But I know thats totally off the wall. Johan tells me that every once in awhile.