Orientalism in Dominions

[Gregstrom]

Hmm... I think these were addressed at me.

Originally Posted by Ewierl

One thing that many number-counters/comparers seem to have missed: Caelum is "oriental" also. Their concept and national summons draw primarily from Zoroastrianism, which is basically Iranian.

I did count them as oriental, although it could go either way. The original race is said by the devs to be entirely fictional, with the Zoroastrian summons added later. I lumped them in as oriental just to be sure. Perhaps that's orientalism on my part.

Originally Posted by Ewierl

Plus, whomever counted Caelians as 'non-humanoid' while counting EA Abysia as 'humanoid' is nuts

I counted Abysia as human-shaped but non-human. Caelum are not human-shaped, by virtue of having great big wings. The groups I made were a bit arbitrary and I guess the edges are fuzzy.

[Omnirizon]

Originally Posted by NTJedi

This seems similar to the issue where one individual was all bothered by the Jewish representation... was it Hinnom? I'm sure there's many dozen angles where religion, nationalities, culture, and other historic aspects could be found as annoying/inaccurate/offensive/etc .

I'm sure if a real MAJOR issue/conflict did exist we would have seen several huge topics discussing the issue... compared with one or two topics each year with very few individuals feeling there's a problem.

Actually this is exactly opposite.

Orientalism is a theory of _how_ we represent the Orient; not what is represented.

Using Orientalism, I cannot come and troll around, claiming that representations of the Orient in this game are degrading or false; Orientalism is in no position to judge the quality or truth of a representation. In fact it would reject any kind of judgment.

Orientalism would be entirely unconcerned with the content of a representation aside from demonstrating how it is a performance of Orientalism. If you read my posts, that's all I was concerned with doing. This was not an instrumentalist choice; I was not trying to make an instrumentally political statement where I could gather support for some cause. Theorists of Orientalism would reject this too. (On the whole, these theorists are intellectually elitists, and find the worldy norms of doing everything for an instrumental reason as part of what is wrong with the world. Consider that "Orientalization" happened and was used for instrumental reasons.)

Without going into the epistemics of the acts of the person who was complaining about Hinnom, I can just say that politically most theorists of Orientalism would find the representation of the Jewish tribes in this game as terribly ironic, and the humored ones would probably crack a smile. I've always said Dominions is a game of irony; and that's true.

[Spendios]

Is the Ramayana orientalist ? Just wondering because there are a lot of monkey people in

[Omnirizon]

No but the fact that the Ramayana is a stand in for "India" is. It emphasizes India as mythic romantic religous... and thus irrational. This is the instrumental outcome of Orientalism since a realist Europe felt justified to colonize and exploit a mystified India.

[HoneyBadger]

I don't know, Omnirizon...the more this issue is mulled over, the less it seems intentional (on whatever level), and the more it seems coincidental. And pertaining to Abyssia: Looking like a duck and walking like a duck ceases to apply when said duck is on fire Molecular/cellular diversions are just as valid differences-if not more so-than cosmetic ones. And the fact that Niefelheim falls under the same categorical shift as Abyssia rules them out as human, or humanoid. If I met somebody tomorrow that was 24 feet tall, and surrounded by a personal blizzard, my first thought wouldn't be "what a fine example of humanity". At the very least, as much would separate such a being from a "purely, merely" human being as a sentient, intelligent, pacifistic monkey of the Buddhist faith.

[Gregstrom]

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

And pertaining to Abyssia: Looking like a duck and walking like a duck ceases to apply when said duck is on fire Molecular/cellular diversions are just as valid differences-if not more so-than cosmetic ones. And the fact that Niefelheim falls under the same categorical shift as Abyssia rules them out as human, or humanoid.

Thus:

Originally Posted by Gregstrom

Abysia, Agartha, Fomoria, Niefelheim and Hinnom are pretty much human-shaped, if definitely non-human.

I feel I've been mis-quoted. I only ever called the Sidhe/Tuatha and Vanir humanoid.

[chrispedersen]

Its a fantasy game, with fantasy flavors. Part of the mystique is far away lands, far away people, and things.

To argue that this is post coloninial jingoist heeby jeebyism is well silly. Do we make similar arguments for the japanese FF series, the popular korean series? Or do we just enjoy the flavors the author has written and say.. cool. I enjoy that.

[HoneyBadger]

The central issue, I feel, is that we *are* dealing with mystification/romantification (such is the nature of the game)-but that we're mainly dealing with mystic elements that those cultures have imparted upon themselves, in some fashion. The exception may be India's portrayal, which is, as mentioned, based on Rudyard Kipling's 'The Jungle Book'. Thus, it is a myth, within a myth, within another myth, and much removed from the original material. *But*, not so far removed that it is a mockery. Kipling was stationed in Colonial India, and did his best to tell a story about India-that-was, albeit through European eyes. It's fantasy, but it's responsible fantasy, again-based atleast in part on actual beliefs (the Ramayana and the Mahabharata, for example). So, it's still myth, just a more modern myth than, say, the Norse sagas-which were, once again, transformed into stories by (probably) Snorri Snurluson, which might not reflect precisely the nature of the original material. It's just the best we have.

Snori may be a little closer to the original material, but Rudyard has every bit the right to tell a story as Snori does, and the story told is every bit as valid, and intriguing.

[Omnirizon]

Originally Posted by chrispedersen

Its a fantasy game, with fantasy flavors. Part of the mystique is far away lands, far away people, and things.

To argue that this is post coloninial jingoist heeby jeebyism is well silly. Do we make similar arguments for the japanese FF series, the popular korean series? Or do we just enjoy the flavors the author has written and say.. cool. I enjoy that.

I think someone else already pointed out in this thread how Orientalism came to shape the media exported from Japan/Korea. That is, what Orientalism told the world Japan/Korea was in turn shaped how Japan/Korea chose to represent themselves to the world.

That's why I said Orientalism is not an accusation that some conception is a mere collection of myths and fantasies, it is a theory (and a critique) of how the Occidental representations became reality.


An allegory that might help make it clear is the proverb:"life imitating art."

The American West that was appropriated by Hollywood and spaghetti westerns was only a mythic representation of the American west. Yet the American west began to don their representations in Hollywood as their own reality.


Knowing this, you can see why any theorist of Orientalism is unconcerned with the content of representation, why they are so concerned with the sublimation of their own work and thus write very obscurely, and why they all tend to be intellectual elitists especially regarding anything which even remotely smells of "mass culture".

I for one don't agree with skepticism towards mass culture. This is simple arrogance and is completely blind to the ways in which mass culture also engages in a sort of "obscurantist" anti-didactic modes of communication that conceal their work or make it totally undigestible to sublimation by the "pop industry monstrosity".

[Kristoffer O]

> Its a fantasy game, with fantasy flavors.

No way! It's a space game, with psionic flavours.

BTW we all love Orientalism, so why deny that dominions is orientalistic. I don't think Omni or anyone else wants to change that. He just wants to show us ourselves, and it tis a beautiful sight Look at me! I'm awesome!

Sorry! We were talking about you.
Look at you! You are also awesome!