Getting the max out of MA Agartha

[Jazzepi]

I really don't see the point in a bless for a nation like Argatha (at least one that doesn't also hit the big sacred recruitables). All you're going to do is gimp yourself in the beginning.

I messed around some more with the build I posted earlier. I'm pretty much convinced that you need lots of early production. IMO you either have one of three things. Early production, an awake pretender, or a bless. If you don't have one of those three things your early expansion is going to be too slow. I'm sure there's a nation or two that can get away without the production, but I can't name any off the top of my head, but I think it applies in general.

Here's an updated build for CBM.

Forge Lord
Dormant
Dominion 7
F2
E4
B4

O3
P3
H1
G1
Misfortune2
Magic1

I really like this build, even though I think you'd probably get rolled by a bless rush. It's difficult to defend with Argatha against something like that. In the end, though, I don't know how much spending good scales on an awake pretender would help. Many bless rush strats can't be beaten by a pretender alone, and you can only forge earth gear for him, so he probably has to be undead. Production 3 also allows you to reliable produce archers from indy provinces without planting a castle down on them. Also, and I don't know why this is, but Argatha has some of the worst, most expensive castles that I've ever seen. They're regularly 1k-1.2k in gold, with FIFTEEN admin which makes them useless for sucking up resources. With this build I would focus on finding good placements for castles on plains/nothing which gives you a fortified city that has 50 admin.

At the end of the day you want to hole up, and forge blood stones each'n'every turn with your god. When he isn't forging, he should be blood hunting if you aren't lucky enough to find someone to trade with. Towards the middle / end of the game, I would probably amass 20 scouts in a single province to do your blood hunting. You really only need a meager income (3 slaves a turn on average) to supply your god with stones.

Since the stones act as boosters, you should find it very easy to get high level earth evocations in every fight, including earthquake spam. You can mix bladewind and iron bane to good effect with your statutes. They aren't actually wearing any armor that can break from the iron bane which should help deal with argatha's most problem enemies; high armor, high defense units that archers can't hurt, and their basic soldiers, statues included, can't really hit because their attack values are garbage.

Jazzepi

[Revolution]

Another potential build for MA Agartha that has a little bit of everything would be as follows...

Awake dom 7 Dragon with W9 (Quickness for your sacreds and a solid SC for early expansion)

Scales as follows...

Order 3
Sloth 2
Heat 2
growth 0
misfortune 2
Magic 1

The magic 1 could be sacrificed for better scales and balanced out by forging lightless lanterns (which you might want to make anyway)
The 2nd attack would give your sacreds two shots at hitting their enemies with their poor attack skill and later on it would allow your marble oracles to bless themselves with quickness.

[vfb]

Have you tried a Dom7 Dragon? It's really likely to get gimped early on, before you get Quicken Self and Breath of Winter. I'd go Dom9, but preferably Dom10. Heat-2 really doesn't synergize well with a blue dragon either. And how many 19-resource Ancient Ones can you make with 2 sloth?

[chrispedersen]

Dominion helps your golems have hit points. If you're not going to go with a phoenix, try:

Dormant
O+3, P+3, H+1, G+1, L-2, M+3,
Ancient olmer 6 W 1 E

Research up the enchant tree. Each casting of claymen will get you 10 claymen - or 1/2 gem per clayman. Add further water boosters to make it even more cost effective.

[Revolution]

Originally Posted by vfb

Have you tried a Dom7 Dragon? It's really likely to get gimped early on, before you get Quicken Self and Breath of Winter. I'd go Dom9, but preferably Dom10. Heat-2 really doesn't synergize well with a blue dragon either. And how many 19-resource Ancient Ones can you make with 2 sloth?

Set to fire closest even with dom 7 I find the blue dragon generally manages against anything but heavy cav...because of his water magic he ends up with 18 defense which in combination with 18 prot and fear usually helps him avoid much damage against anything but elite independents. I've tested it, it's reliable expansion even with the heat scales which admittedly don't work incredibly well with the blue dragon...but you can't really take cold with agartha. If you get really unlucky with your start location and only end up with 2-3 crappy neighbors you do have a point in that you would end up not being able to make 7 ancient ones/turn. But it's not too big of a deal since the dragon is your crutch for early expansion; the ancient ones being decent is just an added benefit. I like the bless more long term for your marble oracles.

Still, you're right...it's kind of a forced match. MA Agartha just has a lot of trouble with early expansion.

Edit - gah just go with an awake risen oracle...seems a waste not to have a powerful death mage with agartha.

[Trumanator]

Originally Posted by Jazzepi

Also, and I don't know why this is, but Argatha has some of the worst, most expensive castles that I've ever seen. They're regularly 1k-1.2k in gold, with FIFTEEN admin which makes them useless for sucking up resources. With this build I would focus on finding good placements for castles on plains/nothing which gives you a fortified city that has 50 admin.
Jazzepi

The good thing about the agarthan castles is that cave cities have autocast darkness, which means that any of your recruitables will destroy whomever tries to invade it in the early/mid game. Very useful, though perhaps not good enough for the high cost and low prod.

[chrispedersen]

Well, no one has picked up on it despite me dropping the hint several times. So I'll out and out state it:

For early game expansion under CBM, nothing (but nothing) beats a phoenix.

And agartha is a perfect fit. You don't want (or need) a lot of paths - you want scales. So something like an F4-6Ax. And for grins and giggles take H3.

[P3D]

Indeed

[Dragar]

Early expansion aside, what is your vision for agartha after that chris? The jazeppi/baalz concept of bloodstones to up earth income and strengthen all of your earth casters requires a pretender to hunt/forge. How would you play out agartha without that angle?

[chrispedersen]

If you want to add blood to the phoenix you can do so. But the whole point of bloodstones is to add *earth gems*. Couple with ready made dwarven hammers...at the very least agartha isn't hurting for earth gems.

The strategy, to my mind depends a lot on whether or not you are in a fixed start with water, and how many other water nations are in the game.

With water, you are going to want to send a 2w/1n (at the least) mage to find you free castles. And this is probably the single greatest and most profitable avenue for agartha. So much so that with fixed starts, and no/few water nations, I'd probably start with an ageless olm with nature.

Absent that, a phoenix is a solid choice. The problem is usually decried as getting to the middle game- the phoenix will get you there.

Generally speaking, I'd research Conj1, and prophetize a cavern wight and use him to raise the undead killed by my Death scale. And/or my phoneix explosions.

After that, its a gamble. Probably the way I would go would be to expand solely with my phoenix/prophet and thugs, relying on them till I researched up to umbral. Ie I don't think I'd build a national troop, plowing it instead into forts and mages.

Although you could add blood to the pretender... I wouldn't.
All of your mages are sacred. If you add death, things like blade wind, and rain of stones, seeking arrow, flames from affar now *afflict*. Plus its a good segue into tartarians.

one other little tiny secret: give your phoenix reinvigoration items. As long as you don't die the final death - you will keep them through each phoenix reincarnation.

Adding 13 to his rinvigoration and scripting hold x5, boots the median respawns from 2.5 to somewhere from 5-7 depending on the whether your pretender has awe, andn his stats.