Lewis gun higher accuracy than Bren?

[chuckfourth]

Hi Cross
Independant AT killer groups do seem to have existed in the various armies TOES so 2 men would seem to be correct. When the AT weapon is simply issued to a squad member then I think it is unlikely that 2IC is in charge of it as this leaves the LMG unsupervised, other infantry usually being the main threat. I think the squad AT guy/team would be on his own, if he wants LMG covering fire then better that the 2IC is directing that.
Best Regards Chuck.

[Cross]

Originally Posted by chuckfourth

Hi Cross
Independant AT killer groups do seem to have existed in the various armies TOES so 2 men would seem to be correct. When the AT weapon is simply issued to a squad member then I think it is unlikely that 2IC is in charge of it as this leaves the LMG unsupervised, other infantry usually being the main threat. I think the squad AT guy/team would be on his own, if he wants LMG covering fire then better that the 2IC is directing that.
Best Regards Chuck.

You are right chuck. If we split a section into it's two component parts for fire base and movement, it would be 7 men (rifles), 3 men with 1 LMG.

I guess I'd assumed the unit was merely representing a LMG, rather than a 'half' a section, as SP doesn't provide a 7 man rifle team.

cheers,
Cross

[runequester]

They could be extra guns retained at higher command levels and parcelled out (I believe the British did this with bren guns) as well as some enterprising grunts acquiring extra guns from elsewhere (other units, dead guys, bren carriers etc)

[Mobhack]

Originally Posted by Cross

You are right chuck. If we split a section into it's two component parts for fire base and movement, it would be 7 men (rifles), 3 men with 1 LMG.

I guess I'd assumed the unit was merely representing a LMG, rather than a 'half' a section, as SP doesn't provide a 7 man rifle team.

cheers,
Cross

It is not representing anything, as I said in an earlier post. It is just something an enthusiastic OOB designer added some time back in the past. The section Brens are with the sections, and those units are just some cruft left over, and not deleted just in case some scenario used them.

Andy

[halstein]

Hi.
On independent LMGs. In Norway, some company-commanders choosed to deploy ther Madsen LMGs in groups apart from the rifle-sections. So sepparate LMGs is not necesseserily wrong. However, on WinSPWW2's scale of 50m hexes, there LMGs can be deployed somewhere else in the hex, without us knowing it. We can not see what deployments the squadleadrs are doing.

Halstein.

[Cross]

I just came across the following in a 6th Airborne (2nd Battalion Ox and Bucks) war diary entry. It does suggest the independent deployment of Brens and "Bren groups". I share this only because it's interesting and relevant; as I understand and agree that the SP scale should really only go down to sections/squads, with the occasional exception.


6th July 1944

Place: Bréville

This morning 'D' Coy standing patrol spotted five enemy in the area of the buildings 147750 who were firing on one of the Commando patrols on our left.
'D' Coy brought up two Brens and three 2" Mortars into the area of their standing patrol at 143750, and arranged with the Mortar Pl to put down a three minute conc just behind the located enemy at 1045 hrs. As soon as the Mortar conc came down the enemy got up and started to run back to their own lines.
'D' Coy then opened up with their Brens and 2" Mortars and claim to have inflicted at least three casualties on the enemy. It is hoped that the 3" Mortar fire inflicted further casualties as the enemy were not dug in.

It was not until 10 minutes later that the enemy reacted to our fire when he opened up on the area D Coy had fired from with small arms fire - by this time 'D' Coy were back in their main posns.

This afternoon 'C' Coy sent three Bren gps and some snipers into the SOUTH of FOX WOOD 147747 with the object of shooting up the enemy, who were believed to move up into the wood during the evening and occupy it by night. At about 1730 a section of enemy came into the wood from the NORTH and 'C' Coy claim to have inflicted two casualties on the enemy.

This evening the short spell of fine weather broke and we had some thunder and rain. Enemy mortaring and shelling has only been slight and we have incurred no casualties.

---

6th Airborne War Diaries found here:

http://www.pegasusarchive.org/normandy/war.htm

cheers,
Cross

[Mobhack]

Yes.

All that is in the standard rifle platoon tactics manual. (The Infantry Platoon in Battle, 1969 I think was the one we used)

Detaching the gun groups from sections to beef up the support fire line is a tactic mentioned there, as is detaching one to take care of enemy unexpectedly found on the approach to the assault. Ambushes and fighting patrols would routinely borrow LMG from the platoon remaining at the base etc. So is detaching a couple of men from the trailing section in the advance to scout ahead of the point section etc. But SP sections are single game pieces!.

Not to mention that if you allowed the less common usages, then the wargamers would ruthlessly exploit it. (Like the German cores that miraculously seem to have most of the SP 88mm they only happened to make 18 of - so the actual thing must have been rather carp! ).

The "LMG group" remains cruft that an overenthusiastic OOB designer left behind. Note the lack of the balancing rifle groups (ie less 2-3 men and no LMG), and lack of any sections/platoons using these things, just a catch-all formation. (I have tried a proper UK section of an LMG group and a rifle group in 2 parts, but the tiddly little things die like flies (esp when shelled), and the additional rallying all those extra elements bring means that they are easily stopped by a little fire).

Feel free to try a hack yourself:
Platoon HQ:
2 man Platoon commander group (officer and operator/runner)
2 man platoon sgt group (Sgt and runner/spare)
2 man MAW group
2 man 2 inch mortar group
3 * sections each:
2 man LMG team (we never ever used 3 men) and remainder rifles

Now, you are free to move the LMG about within the platoon, even if they normally operated in pairs in the sections with a rifle group.

And wait for the enemy to stonk them with some 81mm, or hit a few with rifle fires..

Andy

[Imp]

I think the post earlier about scale says a lot, may be detached but same hex so squad is spread out unlike MMGs which are not.
On the truck 88 occurs to me probably wildly inacurate & perhaps should be reflected.
The truck base has nothing like enough weight to absorb the recoil so rocks posibly falling over with a side shot.

[Mobryan]

Originally Posted by Mobhack

Not to mention that if you allowed the less common usages, then the wargamers would ruthlessly exploit it. (Like the German cores that miraculously seem to have most of the SP 88mm they only happened to make 18 of - so the actual thing must have been rather carp! ).


Andy

Yeah, nothing like being hit by a company of Finnish T-28's in 1940, they only captured like 3 the whole war

Matt