Units with stupid weapon choices

[Wrana]

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

P3D, you're right about the spear directing more force along it's single point, but one advantage the trident's three points gives is stability, so that it's easier to center an attack. The trident probably wouldn't be able to penetrate the armour as often, but when it did it would make a much wider and more ragged wound--thus more blood spilled, with a greater chance to clip an artery or puncture an organ. The wound would also be considerably harder to treat medically. Another advantage is-and this is specifically because it doesn't go as deep-a trident would have less of a tendancy to get stuck in an opponent.

I think giving them 7 damage is a bit much, however.

Trident stats, in my opinion, should be more like Dam 4, +1 att/0def.

Something like this, probably. I would say that they should have more Defence than attack - they are quite usable to parry enemy strikes and especially thrusts. Actually, Chinese sometimes used tridents specifically against spear-armed enemy infantry.
Also, I'd say that spears should have higher damage overall... Plus probably higher Defence. It's quite easy to fight with one against sword and damn difficult other way around!
As for pikes vs longspears question, I'd say that pikes are used two-handed. Though I would prefer to give them lower base damage and charge bonus as they were quite often used offensively... But that's just me and there was another discussion on this.

[MaxWilson]

Originally Posted by Wrana

Also, I'd say that spears should have higher damage overall... Plus probably higher Defence. It's quite easy to fight with one against sword and d... difficult other way around!

Isn't that just the Repel mechanic instead of high Defense?

-Max

[Wrana]

Originally Posted by MaxWilson

Isn't that just the Repel mechanic instead of high Defense?

-Max

Possibly, but spear also allows a wide range of parries. I mean 2-handed use, of course, and here it gets very high mobility. But even one-handed, it can be quite nimble. Vikings even used spear & sword as paired weapons!

[Burnsaber]

Originally Posted by Wrana

Vikings even used spear & sword as paired weapons!

But that's -5 to attack! How could they hit anything?

[Humakty]

Well, the three heads make it easier to block than a spear, as you can put your sword between the heads .It is maybe why they haven't been seen much on the medieval battkefields. I rather see tridents as a fishing 'weapon'. The simpler weapon is often the better one. I thought they used maces during WW1, not flails, you need to train a lot to efficiently use a flail, and a tranche is rather a small place, so the mace is better. The main fault of the bayonnet is you have to fix it to your gun, plus your gun is not a melee weapon, and so has a deficient balance. No perfect weapon exists !

[HoneyBadger]

Well...blocking a trident is possible, but in the process of that, you're still putting yourself in close proximity to it's blades, so it's hardly a golden option. And the trident-wielder can more easily block you, than you can block him, due to the length of the trident.

As far as medieval "tridents", the weapon actually became more sophisticated, not less, over time. Spetums, ranseurs, and partisans--which saw use into the 18th century, all evolved from the trident.

Infact, the partisan was one of the very last melee weapons used on the field of battle. If I remember correctly, partisans were in use by the British (who had one of the most advanced war-machines in existence at the time) in the American Revolutionary War.

[HoneyBadger]

You're right, Wrana. A trident could probably do with a +1 to defense, as well as attack. I was thinking of their 1-handed use, where they might be a bit unwieldy to defend with, but I forgot the game makes them be used 2-handed, so in that case, they definitely should get a defense bonus.

It's too bad there's no mechanics set up to allow units to switch between 1 and 2 handedness for certain weapons in the game. Although I suppose it could be modded in as a shapechange, in certain (non forged item) cases.

[Agema]

Tridents should do more damage than spears because tridents are wielded with two hands, not one.

* * *

Partisans were not really battlefield weapons after pike warfare became obsolete. A very similar weapon called a 'spontoon' was on battlefields until the 19th century. However, whilst it would be used as a weapon where necessary, that was not it's main function. Some were given to troops guarding the regimental colours, and were ceremonial more than anything else. Sergeants had them as their symbol of rank (like officers had swords), and used them as a signalling system to give instructions to troops.

[HoneyBadger]

Agema: Tridents aren't difficult to weild in one hand. Easy enough to catch fish with them, anyway, or even throw them over short distances. And gladiators typically used them with nets. It's just a game convention, not something that's true in real life.

The big
polearms that evolved from them would be 2 handed weapons, but not the trident itself, which would often be shorter than a spear, and could be used either 1 or 2 handed.

You're right about them being mostly ceremonial, but that's a bit beside the point, which is their extraordinary longevity in the face of obsolescence. They were officers' weapons (master sergeants' weapons, anyway, approximately, or whatever the equivalent rank would have been), and were certainly still used *as* weapons, when the necessity arose--they examples I've seen, the ones that actually saw combat, weren't blunted or faked. And I suspect there was a good reason such weapons were chosen as "symbols", that had atleast something to do with them being useful in a pinch.

[Agema]

If you want to make a 1-handed Dom3 trident, mod yourself one. I'm just saying they're 2-handed as exist in game, and deserve stats to reflect that.

You mean, an extraordinary longevity based on the fact such polearms were no longer primarily used as weapons. A Napoleonic soldier could bash in the head of an enemy with a large rock he picked up, and you could equally enthuse about the extraordinary longevity of large rocks in the face of obsolescence.