New Strategy: Drones with Subverters !

[Wardad]

Subverters have a very long recharge time. It might as well be considered a 1 shot per battle weapon. The large size of the weapon can leave the ship basically useless for the rest of the battle. It only has a 100% chance to subvert up close, if it hits. So it is tricky to deploy.

If you make shields a defense against subverters, they really will become useless due to the recharge time.

Using subverters in drones sounds awesome. They are fast enough to get close, and can ram as a secondary strategy.

[Cirvol]

it is ridiculously easy to win with psychic and religious

as someone mentioned, its a big sign in a pbw game to "kill this guy early or else"...

and what happens if its a huge galaxy and no one get to him in time?

if you got room to grow... it would be super hard to stop this combo... but only for 2 reasons...

1 = that talismans are STILL unbalanced
2 = that subverters going thru phased-shields makes them unbalanced... (making master computers stop them isn't enough imho)

does anyone disagree with those 2 points?

[Wardad]

Well, I'm playing Religious and Psychic in a huge galaxy with lots of warp points.
The Shrines and the Psychic Ship training are most helpfull ;-)
I wish I had more points for maintenance reduction. There are too many warp points in this huge galaxy for SATs stacks to be effective. I have about 5000 units now and only inhabit 1/7 the galaxy. There is a 20,000 unit limit.
I do not consider Subverter and Talisman uber weapons. They both take a lot of room in a ship. I consider them to be the icing on the cake in the late game.
The cake is playing a good game of rock, paper, scissors with your opponants, and doing some solid economy management.

[Ragnarok]

Originally posted by Cirvol:

1 = that talismans are STILL unbalanced
2 = that subverters going thru phased-shields makes them unbalanced... (making master computers stop them isn't enough imho)

does anyone disagree with those 2 points?

Sorry but I do not agree.
If it is a large galaxy and they have time to grow and build up. Yes it will be a harder challange to destroy that empire but not nearly impossible.
Ok first we will consider the Talisman. If you are religious and you have this component without the AS. All the defender has to do is use a max range stratagy and they can easily defeat you if done right. Use missles, if PD is too heavy then go to the longest firing beam weapon you have with lots of combat modifiers.

Now lets look at the AS. As was already mentioned the load time hurts the AS badly. Again, you can use the max range stratagy against this as well as was mentioned. The AS has a max range of what 5? 6? You can easily over come that with the WMG or like weapon. Once again making it not impossible to defeat the AS.
If you are not religious with the AS then it will be harder to use the AS to win a game. Because it has a 100% to convert only at 1 range. After that it falls off alot. I think 50% by range 5 or 6 which ever it is. Which isn't that much.

Now look at both as a combo. It makes it a whole lot harder to defend against. But once again, not impossible. Deploy the max range stratagy and presto you have a fighting chance. Sure if you get within range with that combo you could be in trouble. But thats why you don't get within range. Keep as far as you can away from them and you can easily win the battle.

So while the Talisman may be a bit unbalanced I do not feel that it is a uber trait to have.

[spoon]

Originally posted by Cirvol:

1 = that talismans are STILL unbalanced
2 = that subverters going thru phased-shields makes them unbalanced... (making master computers stop them isn't enough imho)

does anyone disagree with those 2 points?

1 - I agree. The component should be larger and more expensive.
2 - I disagree. I think the fix in the next patch will more or less balance them.

-Spoon

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There is so a spoon.

[Cheeze]

In all the discussion of the talisman + virus + subverter I have question about the subverter itself. How does the "damage" of the subverter relate to its ability to convert an enemy ship? Is it a percentage chance that it will succeed? Does the "damage" relate to enemy tonnage, or some such thing?

I have wondered about the virus/subverter combo. My reasoning for it's was that a ship controlled by a MC is not completely free of a crew. It just doesn't require the same number of crew that need the bridge, life support and crew quarters. If/when a MC is taken out, this skeleton crew can run the ship. That is why the ship can still move (albeit only 1 space) and shoot, as well as any other ship functions. A long time ago I played against someone where my virus/subverter combo worked. However, it generally only did so against heavily-damaged ships, I mean very heavy damage. I'd seen some ships get hit (without that talisman, the accuracy of that weapon seems to stink!) and not be affected.

[spoon]

Originally posted by Ragnarok:
Ok first we will consider the Talisman. If you are religious and you have this component without the AS. All the defender has to do is use a max range stratagy and they can easily defeat you if done right.

It's not like the AS is the only weapon on the ship, and the Talisman wins hands down in a max-range/max-range battle.

Use missles, if PD is too heavy then go to the longest firing beam weapon you have with lots of combat modifiers.

Missiles rarely work, and the Talisman player can have just as many combat modifiers

The AS has a max range of what 5? 6? You can easily over come that with the WMG or like weapon. Once again making it not impossible to defeat the AS.

I'd put my money on the AS ships

If you are not religious with the AS then it will be harder to use the AS to win a game. Because it has a 100% to convert only at 1 range. After that it falls off alot. I think 50% by range 5 or 6 which ever it is. Which isn't that much.

You can put them on mounts, which raises it up pretty high.

So while the Talisman may be a bit unbalanced I do not feel that it is a uber trait to have.

The main balancing factor is the tendency to gang up on Talisman weilders, and to do it early. This is a good sign that it is unbalanced. However, the threat of such an alliance kind of makes for a cool game mechanic in games with experienced players.

-spoon

[Wardad]

Originally posted by Cirvol:
...
1 = that talismans are STILL unbalanced
2 = that subverters going thru phased-shields makes them unbalanced... (making master computers stop them isn't enough imho)

does anyone disagree with those 2 points?

1. Yes, talismans are unbalanced. Lower it from a guarenteed hit to a regular size combat sensor with a bonus (+150), and add another level of combat sensor for the normal races (+85).

2. No, to your solution unless the subverters fire rate is increased.

[Ruatha]

Originally posted by PvK:
Boarding parties aren't units, they're components.

Hmm, sorry, didn't think of that!

[Cirvol]

Ok, so we're all mostly in agreement that talismans are pretty out of balance...

(my personal solution is to just change it to +99% chance to hit as this is what i think makes the most sense, and is a good balance with all the 'normal' races having +65% with combat sensor 3's (but the more i think of a 'normal' +85% cs4, the more i like it... hard to decide tho, since it really affects everything a lot)

having master computers is the 'current' solution to the subverter 'balance' problem...

(someone mentioned that even after a mc is destroyed that the ship will be unable to be subverted in the upcoming patch ... anyone have an eta on the next gold-patch??? )

the only issue with this is the cost... i will of course be using mc's against any psychic races, but still, it forces an expensive cost into a light cruiser design which would normally need only 1500 mineral for the cq, bridge, and ls... vs what, 4k mineral, 1k of org and 1k rad for a computer?

if you have a self-destruct device, will it blow up the offending subverter ship as well?... does it even work vs subverters? (in terms of blowing up?)