Endgame Diversity Mod - v1.2 released

[Soyweiser]

Not really, somebody should really make one on the wiki. Just one page with all the stats.

[Stavis_L]

Originally Posted by aaminoff

Is there a document or a web page that lists all of the summonable creatures' stats? I understand I can create a test game with the EDM nation but perhaps someone has done the work for me?

Originally Posted by Soyweiser

Not really, somebody should really make one on the wiki. Just one page with all the stats.

The "Mod Reports" that Lars was considering adding to his mod editor would be just what you're looking for, I think. You might want to respond in his thread if you're interested:

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=47560

[kasnavada]

Originally Posted by Sajuuk

Asynjas and Kraken now have one or more 50% picks, isn't it a little luck dependent for a costy summon?

Having tried, I second this for Asynjas.

I do not really see the point of Asynjas having blood, but then I play mostly Caelum as an Air nation. It's certainly pointless for SC since you do not walk around with slaves. I suspect it might come in handy for air / blood nations like vanheim, that can use them in communions, but with 2 air and no garanteed blood, it's probably better just to use nationals.

What they lack to be cost effective is either garanteed access to 1 earth, or 2 death : access to armor-boosting spells or to soul vortex, and mist-form not dependant on gear. I do think that the combinaison of all three is really unbalanced, and I do not really remember other SC having all those paths.

As a comparison point to give you the reason why I think they are not worth it, I propose Caelum Harab elders.

- Asynjas have lower magic path, but they got a very low chance of getting the same paths (2 air, 1 earth, 2 death).
- research necessary is the exact same (they got at best the exact same path),
- Elders are cap only but are recrutable for 270 gold instead of 35 air gem.
- Asynjas have to more HP (12 times more), but it's insignificant if mistform can be kept up.
- harab elders can be blessed, asynjas can't.
- statwise, the avantage is clearly to the Asynjas. Properly kitted however, stats can be compensated.
- harab flies but the Asynjas is stealthy.

Ok, so... assuming equal access to buffs, the only thing Asynjas got for them is their stats : most important being 2 more MR, more HP (so less dependant on mistform). Asynjas hit more often and stronger but harab can do the "clearing army" job. Other stats are irrelevant as far as army clearing is concerned, as soul vortex will do the job. Stealth and flying both have their use, let's say both are as strong.

But, they do not have the same magic path, basically making army-clearing easier for Harab elders than Asynjas. 3 things can kill harab elders : anti-SC thug / SC (which also kill Asynjas), anti-SC/thugs spells (of which most will also kill Asynjas), flying units killing before buff is done.

So... I kinda wonder what's the point. I can run basically the same analysis with Eagle kings in EA Caelum : they got awe, access from mistform and earth buff out of the box. Fomoria would just use a Fomorian King instead of Aesirs. For those nations, Aesir are kinda niche, if not just outdone, by national units.

What other nations is there around... MA Caelum might use them. Vanheim's got blood, and I do not know about the relative strength of blood summons. LA and MA Man and Eriu ? Even then you might just have a Air 3 Aesir, a path that air nation can usually recruit.

Conclusion : in my opinion, air gems are too important (cloud trapeze) to be wasted on units that might just be high HP versions of your nationals with lower magic path. Mistform takes care of HP difference, and Shishis and Roc already play that role anyway. What I would do is give them at least 2 air 1 earth to them, with a (very) low chance of getting a truly exceptional SC with 2D, something like 2 air / 1 earth / 50% AED, 10%D.

[llamabeast]

The Asynja seems to get a lot of comments, but half of them discuss how massively OP she is and half say how she is hopelessly weak. It's hard to know what to make of the controversy. I guess the implication is that she's strong situationally - which is exactly what I'd hope for.

[Psycho]

After having played a bit with this mod, my conclusion is that three summons stand above the rest and warrant nerfing. The three are:

1) Asynja being the only SC that can teleport and go into hiding. It's one thing to have a 15hp thug do it, but quite another to have an 85hp titan capable of destroying entire armies or dealing with enemy SCs do it. I think a price increase is in order.

2) Grendelkin mostly because of the enormous hp value. Huge hp equals huge regeneration, which makes killing a grendelkin quite difficult. I believe that fewer grendelkins should be roaming around and recommend a price increase, especially as water gems have fewer efficient uses than most other types of gems.

3) Shishis are inexpensive units that can raid very effectively with little investment in terms of items. I like these cheap raiders, but perhaps they are too effective? How about increasing their encumbrance to 2.

[kasnavada]

I guess the implication is that she's strong situationally - which is exactly what I'd hope for.

Either that, or she goes from useless to overpowered depending on the path she got. Asynjas are a 35 gem... gamble. The average price may be right, but... the useless versions are worth about 20, or even less, while the better ones might go to 50. As they are now, gambling your end game on SC which might just be useless is not fun. Especially since air gem have got reliable use.

[Psycho]

I can't bother to read through 40 pages of this thread. Can someone sum up the reasons why Asynjas would be considered hopelessly weak?

The last poster is far off comparing them to recruitable mages. First of all, more hp makes all the difference. Caelum or Vanheim thugs can be killed with a single shot and thus will rarely be fully equipped as that risks a lot of gems. Secondly, more regen is important as mistform is really only meaningful against pd and conventional armies. A successful magical attack pops it immediately. Other higher stats such as attack and defence are also important, especially for the anti-SC role. Finally, flying cannot be compared to stealth. Stealth is one of the most powerful unit abilities in game, so powerful, in fact, that there is no spell or item that grants it.

[kasnavada]

Can someone sum up the reasons why Asynjas would be considered hopelessly weak?

The main point in my opinion is that if you do not get a variety of paths, it has NOTHING to make it efficient as an SC with equivalent HP, or to help her survive any given situation, except glamour. It does not even get some resistance to an element. So, basically, you need a complete set of item to boost it to do whatever you'd do with another SC (even a cheaper one) for a lesser cost. Depending on what you're setting her to do, a thug with 20 gem worth of equipment might do better for a fraction of the "gemcost".

I do not know why other find them weak, there may be other reasons.

[rdonj]

Psycho - the main argument has been something like: they're too expensive for what they do, they are basically glorified raiders, other things can raid more cheaply, they're not tough enough to use as SCs, they can be mind hunted, and "I'd rather summon shishis." I think most of that conversation was on dom3mods anyway.

[Executor]

Any thug, regardless of gear, is hardly better than an Asynja. Flat out, due to her good stats and base equipment, she is better (and much cheaper) than any equipped thug raiding vice.

Personally, I don't think any of the Asynja paths are useless,
-more air for a glamor unit is always good, and she has a freakish defense as it is
-earth gives options of protection buffs and more reivnigoration
-blood can be used for blood vengeance
-and the death (least useful path imo) can be used as spellcasters, wailing wind

I agree with what rdonj said, shishis are better price vice but that's because they're far too cheap for what you get.
However I wouldn't call Asynjas hopeless or bad in any situation nor are they worse than other SCs. The glamor they have + very high defense, which can also be increased, + a luck pendant makes them extremely hard to hit. Even an SC with quickness and gloves of the gladiator would have a hard time hitting her, that is if he manages to catch the Asynja.
Sure, lack of resistance can be a problem, but it's a problem for anyone.
The only SCs you can really protect from elemental damage are Tartarians anyway.
Same goes for mind hunt.

Basically, a stealthy, teleporting unit, with great stats and great base equipment that can capture 3 provinces in 2 turns and not even be intercepted by anti SCs can hardly be considered underpowered or situational, but that's just me.